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BestOf FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC! from Finland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!
#201: Apr 11th 2012 at 9:23:15 PM

I strongly suspect anyone actually achieving such zen-like levels of transcendence will have lost the motivation to actually do anything.

Well I'm pretty lazy, but there's tons of stuff I'd like to do. Like, I'd like to write a book that starts with this philosophy stuff, much like Descartes, at first making very few basic assumptions and then building up from there, and eventually it'd end with a huge paean for science, the world, mankind and the universe.

I'd like to go on living with my girlfriend and loving her for years and years and potentially until I die (or she does.)

I enjoy many things. I wish I had my brother's collection of Pratchett books so that I'd have something I could always read, and I wish that I had the books that I've been meaning to read but haven't.

Every day I spend some time in You Tube, watching the videos of Lawrence Krauss, Neil deGrasse Tyson, Michio Kaku, Carl Sagan, Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris, Dan Dennett, James Randi, PZ Myers and recently Tim Minchin. (Well I don't watch all of those guys every day, but I think you get what I mean.) All of these people and countless others help me reach the low hanging fruit of emotional reward that is available for anyone who can enjoy the wonders of nature and of one relativistically prominent part of it: humanity.

I don't have to believe that my experiences last longer than my brain will work, and if I have a moment of clarity (which I do pretty often,) I don't have to ponder whether or not I'll remember it years later or if it'll stay with me for long. I can enjoy it while it lasts and go on with my life.

I love people. Even people I haven't met, I have a solidarity for. My understanding is that this solidarity that spans our species but is stronger with those with whom I'm in some way or another allied and weaker but still existent towards animals and plants, is all a result of evolution by natural selection: the individuals that had the faculty of solidarity were better able to survive as groups than those who didn't, and even if some very selfish individuals managed to get a free ride without putting in their share of the effort, the genes and memes for that kind of behaviour would always be in the minority or that group would be surpassed and replaced by a more solidary group if one came by.

That solidarity, even if I agree that it's not significant in a fundamental way, drives me. I don't need anything beyond my reach to drive me; I can always strive to get that which I can reasonably expect to get, and I can strive towards larger, more distant goals and derive pleasure from dreaming about them, while exposing myself to the risk of disappointment if I'm not making visible progress.

I want to help my fellow humans enjoy life, and through my political activism I want in my own small way to help the causes that I support, in the hope that they will bring progress to humanity towards equality and all kinds of positive advances.

I've never been one for paintings or architecture. I don't know why, but I just can't really immerse myself in them. Even with music, I suppose I'm kind of shallow but I enjoy some kinds of music very much while being unable to understand other genres.

I really love literature, non-fiction and fiction. I've even got a soft spot for poetry, but my childhood was so devoid of it that I haven't grown a great capacity for it. I like movies, especially ones where the story and the message are what drives it. And I like comedy, I think it is among the greatest quirks of our wonderful species.

I'm also very fond of video games, but for some years now I've only focused on casual gaming, which I do while listening to lectures or music or debates. (I focus on the audio better if I'm doing something with my hands and eyes, like playing Spelunky with the sounds off.)

I like to hang out with friends, and I'm easily persuaded to have a party and get drunk and talk about silly stuff. I love doing that. I also love quiet evenings with my girlfriend and my cat, even if we're not really doing anything together.

In the future, I hope that I'll get around to writing that book I've got in me. I'm afraid that I've heard all of my points made so well by people I admire that I might inadvertently end up with a book full of references or unintended plagiarism, and that fear is preventing me from taking up that task; so I'll have to grow some originality first.

OK, what was the point of going into this description of my life?

Well, I wanted to show you what kind of life one can have by enjoying the moment and by practicing philosophy and by nurturing one's inner impulse of curiosity towards the universe, which is very rewarding on two levels: one, you get to know things you would never have thought of or guessed, and that's emotionally rewarding; and two, you sometimes get to learn the natural mechanisms that cause those beautiful and interesting things you see, and to me that brings a sense of contentment and satisfaction and bliss that is almost without equal.

That all of this is "only" the emergent psychological phenomenon that arises from the functions of the body and is lost once those functions cease is of no significance whatsoever towards enjoying the experiences of life and the wonderful chance to even have those experiences. I mean, I enjoy the idea of flying. I've been on an airplane 4 times, and while it is of course not very comfortable, looking out the window and remembering what I've read about how the plane flies, things like that - I can enjoy flying even if I know how the plane works and that there's no magic involved.

When I hold my girlfriend's hand and I get a sense of relaxation and fullness, I can know that my brain is being bathed in chemicals that are produced as the end products of a complex phenomenon that arose from random mutations, from which the process of natural selection "selected" those that were able to cause results that made for better ability to function as a society and a family unit.

The larger picture is that I'm only getting an emotional reward for pairing up because a social and biological function (the making of babies) was helped along by the evolution of that reward. And I'm amazed by that and I get some pleasure just from thinking about that.

But I can also just let myself go and enjoy the ride while it lasts, loving my girlfriend for as real as anything can be. I can go back to the little picture when I want.

When I die, I hope there will be something useful that my body can be used for - organ donation, medical experimentation and perhaps some bits will be grinded for fertilisers if that's worth the effort.

After that, all that will remain of me will be the memory of me in those I left behind and the influence that my actions and words had. I will have contributed to society and then I'll cease to be a part of it, and decades later, I won't be remembered and my contributions will be just some statistics that historians and sociologists study. If I get that book written and if it sells decently, I'll of course have that, too, as my legacy.

But that will only matter to me as long as I'm alive, thinking about it and perhaps enjoying the idea that I've made an impact.

And I don't mind. I don't mind that all will be forgotten. I don't mind that some day there will be no humanity and that there will probably come a time when no descendant of life on Earth will be alive, and when the Sun finally dies it'll become impossible for lifeforms in other planets to ever know we were here. I don't care. I love what we have now and I want to improve it, and I cannot imagine how I could ever want anything more than that.

EDIT: I shouldn't always accept what the spellchecker suggests.

edited 11th Apr '12 9:28:15 PM by BestOf

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
IraTheSquire Since: Apr, 2010
#202: Apr 11th 2012 at 9:33:09 PM

[up][awesome]

Though I'd like to see how far can we go with this "achieving immortality with technology" thing. Not that I'm afraid of Death, but I think trying to resist Death as hard as we can is the way to pay Him the respect He deserves.

Aondeug Oh My from Our Dreams Since: Jun, 2009
Oh My
#203: Apr 11th 2012 at 9:40:44 PM

Not all Bodhisattas elect to stay behind in Samsara. Only shepherd type Bodhisatta. Bodhisatta are simply beings in a state right before Enlightenment, that is right before the attainment of Arahanthood or Buddhahood. Once you hit Enlightenment and die you then go to Nibbana and hopefully take your Parinibbana and never, ever come back. The importance of these beings varies from branch to branch. Generally speaking Theravada doesn't care about them. Save Thai and Burmese Theravada. They're oddballs.

THE MORE YOU KNOW.

edited 11th Apr '12 9:42:15 PM by Aondeug

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah
Thorn14 Gunpla is amazing! Since: Aug, 2010
Gunpla is amazing!
#204: Apr 11th 2012 at 10:01:15 PM

[up][up]

I really wonder if cyrogenic freezing is a possibility. Because if there is no afterlife, we wouldn't tell the difference if we were frozen no? At least we might wake up.

IraTheSquire Since: Apr, 2010
#205: Apr 11th 2012 at 11:02:08 PM

I wouldn't. One of the reasons why I prefer no afterlife is that I don't have to worry about what to do with it. Yes, I am too lazy to live. tongue

Lanceleoghauni Cyborg Helmsman from Z or R Twice Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: In my bunk
#206: Apr 11th 2012 at 11:14:13 PM

The issue with cryogenics that ice forms needles, that's the reason they freeze you so fast, to try and Popsicle you before large crystals develop and rend your internal organs. I'm not terribly familiar with the process, however. they might have found a way to deal with the icing problem. *

"Coffee! Coffeecoffeecoffee! Coffee! Not as strong as Meth-amphetamine, but it lets you keep your teeth!"
inane242 Anwalt der Verdammten from A B-Movie Bildungsroman Since: Nov, 2010
Anwalt der Verdammten
#207: Apr 11th 2012 at 11:18:59 PM

The idea is that they freeze you, then you get unfrozen in the future when they figure out how to fix those issues.

The 5 geek social fallacies. Know them well.
IraTheSquire Since: Apr, 2010
#208: Apr 11th 2012 at 11:19:26 PM

they might have found a way to deal with the icing problem. * IN A CAVE! WITH A BOX OF SCRAPS!

That so reminds me of a certain chapter in The Kurosagi Corpse Delivery Service.

Lanceleoghauni Cyborg Helmsman from Z or R Twice Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: In my bunk
#209: Apr 11th 2012 at 11:24:52 PM

I knew that much naney. I more meant like, the actual technical details.

"Coffee! Coffeecoffeecoffee! Coffee! Not as strong as Meth-amphetamine, but it lets you keep your teeth!"
inane242 Anwalt der Verdammten from A B-Movie Bildungsroman Since: Nov, 2010
Anwalt der Verdammten
#210: Apr 11th 2012 at 11:35:29 PM

The idea is that they figure out how to repair the frozen tissues in the future in addition to figuring out how to fix you up.

The 5 geek social fallacies. Know them well.
Thorn14 Gunpla is amazing! Since: Aug, 2010
Gunpla is amazing!
#211: Apr 12th 2012 at 12:29:26 AM

I'll freeze myself so in the future they'll fix it and then I can freeze myself.

inane242 Anwalt der Verdammten from A B-Movie Bildungsroman Since: Nov, 2010
Anwalt der Verdammten
#212: Apr 12th 2012 at 12:30:23 AM

So dawg, I herd you leik freezing....

The 5 geek social fallacies. Know them well.
Lanceleoghauni Cyborg Helmsman from Z or R Twice Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: In my bunk
#213: Apr 12th 2012 at 12:31:00 AM

I knew that too! XD

I more meant like, actual nitty gritty stuff-you'd-see-on-the-engineers-reports detailing. cooling speed, coolant, etc.

I still think it's a bloody stupid idea.

"Coffee! Coffeecoffeecoffee! Coffee! Not as strong as Meth-amphetamine, but it lets you keep your teeth!"
Qeise Professional Smartass from sqrt(-inf)/0 Since: Jan, 2011 Relationship Status: Waiting for you *wink*
Professional Smartass
#214: Apr 12th 2012 at 5:41:57 AM

@Best Of: I agree with you on that a finite existence can give fulfillment and joy, but I wouldn't be so sure our end will come with the Suns burnout.

@Cyrogenics: I'm not going to become a cropsicle, not because I don't like the idea, but because there are expences to it, and those resourses could be put to better use than preserving my body on the slim hope that in the future someone will have the means and motivation to bring me back.

Laws are made to be broken. You're next, thermodynamics.
BestOf FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC! from Finland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!
#215: Apr 12th 2012 at 6:06:58 AM

[up]Yeah, I meant to say "...when the Sun finally dies it'll probably become impossible for lifeforms in other planets to ever know we were here. " Of course that can be prevented by migrating to another planet or many planets.

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
IraTheSquire Since: Apr, 2010
#216: Apr 12th 2012 at 6:17:09 AM

[up] Or better: self sufficient travelling space colonies that collect hydrogen for energy to produce food and water etc.

BestOf FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC! from Finland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!
#217: Apr 12th 2012 at 6:37:20 AM

[up]I would love to reply to this in any way except the one I'm gonna. That is, this is off-topic.

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
IraTheSquire Since: Apr, 2010
#218: Apr 12th 2012 at 6:38:57 AM

True. We should start a thread.

BestOf FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC! from Finland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!
#219: Apr 12th 2012 at 6:49:08 AM

You can take it to my exoplanet thread.

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#220: Apr 12th 2012 at 7:55:59 AM

Back on topic.

@Best: I like the way you relate materialism with a Zen-like appreciation of the present moment in time. However, and I mean this with all due respect and love, I think your lifestyle, while admirable, would bore me something crazy. Maybe I'm just driven by cruder, more base impulses, but I am more motivated by sources of dissatisfaction with the world around me than I am with simple pleasures or philosophic musings. In particular, I notice a certain population of people who take advantage of their position in life to take things from other people who are not in a position to resist, who out of a competitive sense of entitlement act like very smart schoolyard bullies. The well-connected and the wealthy often demonstrate a willingness to game the system in such a way that they protect their own interests at the expense of others. In short, the lack of justice in the world disturbs my sensibilities. In looking for ways to resist injustice, I have come to realize just how much the odds are against success. The relatively powerful, by definition, have advantages the relatively powerless do not, and I have little faith in materialistic forces to correct this. Without a faith in "goodness" or justice per se, that is as ideals that are real, that act as forces in their own right, and not just as concepts in people's heads, I don't think I would see any reason to believe in progress. Human greed, ignorance and fear are simply too great for mere idealists to overcome. The forces arrayed against change are far stronger than the forces arrayed to promote it.

History does provide some reason for optimism. I would not exchange my life for that of some random person chosen from a hundred years ago. Somehow people pursuing their interests manage to change things such that most of us end up being better off. Now if you tell me that this has occurred because human being evolved certain expectations that become true over the course of multiple generations because we evolved those expectations, then I would reply that seems just as much a post-hoc rationalization as any other leap of faith. Why not just believe in Justice as a ideal operating on the world? That seems simpler. Somehow, in some way we don't understand, ideals like Justice, Freedom, Love, Beauty, and Perfection exist apart from us, and exert a power over people that I don't think can be explained by the random interaction of material forces.

Yet how can anyone believe in any of those things without believing in the Self? Justice cannot exist apart from materialistic forces unless the self also does. How could such ideals exist, without ideal selves to experience and express them? I know that I am expressing emotion here, not logically consistent concepts. Hard determinism is the only model that is logically consistent with the observable facts. Yet to believe only in Determinism is to acknowledge that the optimism we feel, that allows us to survive and succeed, is an illusion, and that in all probability, the hopes and dreams we have for mankind will likely never occur. It's to believe that evolution has produced an animal that can only survive by telling itself a lie.

If you could somehow prove to me that this is in fact the truth, I would probably conclude that it isn't worth existing. I would rather cease existence, than be an illusion.

Luckily for me, I don't believe that.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
BestOf FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC! from Finland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!
#221: Apr 12th 2012 at 8:41:45 AM

Yeah, this all goes right back into what I've been saying about how some people are and some people aren't compatible with certain patterns of thought. To start with, we all possess the ability to think any thought, but for all of us, there are thoughts and experiences that have been blocked out by our past growth. I cannot twist my mind to contemplate the existence of the supernatural without immediately being filled with questions, just as I expect some can't fathom the finite nature of the "self" without being filled with existential angst (note that in this context, "angst" is not a dirty word.)

So I get what you mean but I don't share that experience.

As for pursuing ideals of human progress, as I said in my previous post, I do that, too. I want people to overcome superstitions, I want people to be able to enjoy science and philosophy, and I want people to pay attention to their daily existence and stop to think every once in a while; it does wonders for your mental health.

That's the stuff I wish I could achieve to some extent if I was able to write that book in me or tour different places giving lectures or debates about this stuff. But as I said, I need to grow some more originality first. My artistic and communicative expression is limited, as you can easily tell from my crudely written posts.

In my daily life, I participate in the regional branch of the political movement that I find closest to my heart. I'm a member of the Left Alliance party, as well as of its youth organisation and the Green-Left student political party of our university. I'm somewhat active in all of them, though currently I'm on a hiatus, and with my activity in these organisations I hope to improve things locally and nationally and to serve the benefit of the international Left movement of the modern European variety.

I don't think that this stuff is at all pointless. I don't care that all of the people we'll ever be able to help in any way are going to die and their families might fade out before mankind reaches another planet. That stuff is outside the sphere of things I'm interested in in my daily life.

The idea that we could reach some political victories here and perhaps win our party some seats in the European Parliament and perhaps make some progress with our international contacts - that idea is very grand to me. The reach of my limited activity is much greater than my normal daily activities, and I'm indirectly and in a microscopic way participating in a movement of hundreds of millions.

To me, this feels like grandeur. To me, this feels like reaching beyond one's own finite existence. And I can hardly imagine anything even greater than this. (I can imagine doing greater things, but the movement itself, and all the people in it, is what I mean when I say I can't imagine anything greater.) I am in my own way participating (or at least trying to participate) in human progress, and that feels much greater than having an afterlife, especially since I know that what I do is real.

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
SpookyMask Since: Jan, 2011
#222: Apr 12th 2012 at 11:56:28 AM

Thread Hop

Everything begins, everything ends, there is nothing wrong with that. Eternity doesn't happen.

Qeise Professional Smartass from sqrt(-inf)/0 Since: Jan, 2011 Relationship Status: Waiting for you *wink*
Professional Smartass
#223: Apr 12th 2012 at 1:20:12 PM

@De Marquis: The greed and selfishness is just a product of culture, not "human nature" as some others would have you belive. And culture can be changed, and I belive it will change to the better. I don't think such things as justice, love and all that exist independetly, but they certainly do exist in us.

Yeah, I'm kind of optimistic. I guess that's the thing I have for what you talked earlier about everyone needing.

[up]I don't want eternity. That would kind of suck. A few trillion (or perhaps a googol - nice, round number wink) years would be sufficent.

Laws are made to be broken. You're next, thermodynamics.
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#224: Apr 12th 2012 at 1:37:49 PM

Whatever source human greed, ignorance and fear come from, the desire for progress comes from the same source, right? So there is no a priori reason to assume that the good guys should win, if you adhere to strict materialism.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
Lanceleoghauni Cyborg Helmsman from Z or R Twice Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: In my bunk
#225: Apr 12th 2012 at 1:42:15 PM

seems mightily arrogant to want to live longer than the universe has so far existed. especially since at about 1 quadrillion years our sun is a black dwarf, and at roughly a google years from the birth of the universe (you'd have about 13.7 billion years left to live at this point) the largest of the Black holes would die out.

welcome to hell, kid.

"Coffee! Coffeecoffeecoffee! Coffee! Not as strong as Meth-amphetamine, but it lets you keep your teeth!"

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