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Lit Fic and how to approach it

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TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#1: Mar 29th 2012 at 10:34:34 AM

I have undertaken the Self-Imposed Challenge of reading through contemporary and classical Literary Fiction, and would be most grateful for any amount of advice on how to do so efficiently and with as little wasted time (and confusion) as possible. While This Very Wiki has given me many, many tools with which to pick apart works as they come, to the point that I hardly find myself surprised by narrative works anymore, I am intimidated by the prospect of using them against such monsters as, say, Ulysses, without much avail. Therefore, I hereby humbly ask for any advice, complimentary sources, suggested preferable reading order, and so on and so forth, that would help me wade through the core of contemporary literary fiction in such a way that, at the end of my journey, I would find myself moderately knowledgeable about the cutting-edge of writecraft.

A guide to poetry would also be very welcome: I am utterly mystified by English-language poetry, which I tend to find impenetrable. Especially Shakespeare, whom I tend to read in foreign translations because I find his language much more accessible when turned into prose, with modern orthography and vocabulary. Aren't there any English editions that perform a similar work, and make him more accessible?

As a final request: while I am not interested in Fan Wank of the excessively speculative, interpretative, or detailed sort, I am not at all the type to tell people "Don't Explain the Joke". By all means, do explain the joke, in as much detail as you feel necessary. I have never found a joke less funny because it was explained, since a joke you don't understand isn't funny in the first place, and can't possibly get worse.

Thank you very much for any help you may want to provide.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Morven Nemesis from Seattle, WA, USA Since: Jan, 2001
Nemesis
#2: Mar 29th 2012 at 1:29:09 PM

I'm kind of mystified by the shakespeare thing; sure, it's in verse, but it's a style that can be read as if it were prose, with no allowance required. Is it really the archaic language that leaves you cold?

A brighter future for a darker age.
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#3: Mar 29th 2012 at 1:55:25 PM

Not "cold". "Confused out of my mind" would be more accurate. The small fragments quoted by Neil Gaiman in The Sandman, for example, had me completely mystified. What is that Puck character saying, and what does it have to do with anything?

Also, without proper annotation, how am I supposed to even know the puns, such as Country Matters, as well as any form of reference to current events, figures, etc.? Contextualization is extremely important, no matter the era. If, ten years ago, when I was only at an intermediate level in English, someone had shown me the sentence "Do you dig it, suckers?" I would have understood "Do you like it, gullible idiots?", rather than "Do you extract holes in it, persons who make suctions?". Only at an even more advanced level was I able to understand it as "Do you get it, guys?". So, yeah, help is very welcome.

Also, Shakespeare use such freaking heavy metaphors. All. The. Time. It's beautiful and all, but I think he takes it a little too far, and sometimes I have to stop and wonder what the heck he is talking about, as they can be quite far-fetched.

edited 29th Mar '12 1:57:00 PM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Jhimmibhob Since: Dec, 2010
#4: Mar 29th 2012 at 2:13:51 PM

I wouldn't start with works like Ulysses—it plays constant games with English literature, and there's no point in approaching it without the prior grounding in said literature that you're just beginning to get. Try reading Joyce's Dubliners instead.

If you want to hit the high points of English literature, a good start might be a modern-English translation/abridgment of The Canterbury Tales. I agree that Shakespeare is a little hard on novices. I don't think you'll find a modern rewording of his plays, but you could look for an edition with generous footnotes—that usually helps me with some of the Bard's more arcane passages.

English poetry runs the gamut from impenetrable to accessible: I'd try Coleridge, Keats, Browning, Chesterton, and Frost. They all have considerable depths, but are clear and unmannered enough to make sense to casual readers as well.

Some good contemporary novels might include Catch-22, Blood Meridian, Cat's Cradle, and Gilead.

Zizoz Since: Feb, 2010
#5: Mar 29th 2012 at 2:16:53 PM

^^«Do you like it, gullible idiots?» is how I would understand that sentence, as well, at least without context.

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#6: Mar 29th 2012 at 2:26:43 PM

[up]Yes, but then your trouble is only what "it" is, why he addresses his interlocutors as gullible idiots, etc. But at least you are aware of the meaning of the words of the sentence. That's a great step forward, don't you think?

[up][up]Precisely. Generously annotated is what I'm looking for. Any recommendations? Preferably something available on Kindle or as an epub or other such ebook format. Print is growing a little obsolete for me. As for the contemporary novels, what about the works listed in the Lit Fic page?

edited 29th Mar '12 2:27:29 PM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Morven Nemesis from Seattle, WA, USA Since: Jan, 2001
Nemesis
#7: Mar 29th 2012 at 5:40:01 PM

I'd also recommend seeing a (live or recorded) performance of a Shakespeare play before trying to read it. That's it's natural format; you'll understand a lot more having seen it performed. Just like I wouldn't generally recommend people read a screenplay without having seen the movie.

A brighter future for a darker age.
BokhuraBurnes Radical Moderate from Inside the Bug Pit Since: Jan, 2001
Radical Moderate
#8: Mar 29th 2012 at 11:27:55 PM

@The Handle: 'Literary fiction', in and of itself, is a pretty big genre. As with something such as 'anime' or 'science fiction', there are a lot of sub-divisions, and someone who likes one type of work might absolutely hate another. The differences between, say, Shakespeare, George Eliot, and Salman Rushdie can be just as big as those between hard sci-fi and space opera.

Now, there's a literary canon that can point you to the most well-esteemed works, but if you're just starting out, I would want to know what sort of things you are interested in reading for. Well-crafted plot and characterization? Social commentary? Psychological depths? Elegant writing? Philosophical musings? Insight into different times/cultures? If I could get a better sense of what you're looking for, I could help point you to some works.

After all, all fiction — including literary fiction! — should be enjoyable to read, in the end.

edited 29th Mar '12 11:34:44 PM by BokhuraBurnes

First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then you win.
Yuanchosaan antic disposition from Australia Since: Jan, 2010
antic disposition
#9: Mar 30th 2012 at 1:28:46 AM

Out of curiosity, are you a native speaker of English?

Some general advice first: don't worry about reading every work, let alone liking them all. No one, not Harold Bloom, nor Michel Foucault nor Jorge Luis Borges (who appears to have made a career out of reviewing fictitious works tongue), is able to do that. There's absolutely no rush, and to come back to a work again because you didn't understand it the first time isn't a sign of inefficiency. Besides, people can argue for years over what works should be considered canonical, and the importance of the books themselves shift with time and context.

If you still want to attempt reading "the Canon"*

Harold Bloom's Western Canon is a generally respected list. Choose a few from the list, read them, and then pick some more based on what you enjoy.

Most importantly, have fun with your reading. I know the feeling of wanting to blaze through all the classics, because they seem so important and meaningful. Don't think of it as a challenge with an end. Hopefully, reading classics and literary fiction will lead you on a journey that lasts you an entire lifetime. grin

Shakespeare: Morven's advice is good. Watch live performances of the plays if you can (though I generally prefer to read them first). If you're watching them on DVD, I find it helps if one reads along. After a while, you'll develop the ability to grasp Shakespeare's language pretty easily. There's a logic to it, and it's not nearly as difficult as it seems. If you're having difficulty at first, Spark Notes has modern prose "translations" on their site, and the Cambridge annotated versions are pretty good.

  • Easy Shakespearean plays:
    • Macbeth
    • Julius Caesar
    • Twelfth Night*
    • Romeo and Juliet
    • Othello
  • Harder (but excellent) Shakespearean plays:
    • King Lear
    • Hamlet
      • Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead is a fantastic play to read/watch after Hamlet. The pair make up my favourite Shakespearean and modern plays.
    • Coriolanus*
    • Merchant of Venice

Pericles and Titus Andronicus are awful. Avoid them.

Poetry: This is a truly enormous field, with so many different styles. What exactly do you find difficult about it? Is it the language, the use of symbolism, archaic terms, the structure, abstract images etc.?

I think Bloom's Canon deals with some poetry as well, but you might like to take a look at Wondering Minstrels. Click the random poem button or poems in the archives, read the poem and comments, then follow what you like.

If it's abstraction and abstruseness that you're having trouble with, try the Romantics and Victorian era poets. I'm biased, because I love those eras, but here's a few you might like: Edgar Allan Poe, Robert Browning, William Blake (he's a bit difficult), Lord Byron, Algernon Charles Swinburne, Samuel Taylor Coleridge and John Keats.

Some more modern poets who are quite accessible: Philip Larkin, Robert Frost, Billy Collins, Czelaw Milosz, Piet Hein.

Classics: Not sure what I can say here, other than to suggest some of the easier works, or perhaps the novels which strongly influenced genres and conventions. What exactly are you looking for?


I have to admit, my first reaction to the topic's name (before I read your post) was to say:
  • 1. Pick up a book.
  • 2. Read it.

And repeat. That's how I began reading "literary fiction" and "classics". Incidentally, I really dislike those terms: I feel they denote a vague collection of books in such a way as to corral them off from prospective readers. By elevating them, it gives many people the impression that classics and literary fiction are difficult to read, overly intellectual and unenjoyable. No doubt some of it is, but there are many fun works out there as well.

"Doctor Who means never having to say you're kidding." - Bocaj
Culex3 They think me mad Since: Jan, 2012
They think me mad
#10: Mar 30th 2012 at 4:57:16 PM

While This Very Wiki has given me many, many tools with which to pick apart works as they come

You'll need "tools" beyond picking things apart into tropes if you really want to understand a lot of the Lit Fic books mentioned. Complex works can't be picked apart into a list of tropes while keeping the meaning. Context is everything.

to the last I grapple with thee; from hell’s heart I stab at thee; for hate’s sake I spit my last breath at thee
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#11: Mar 31st 2012 at 3:12:03 AM

Why, yes, obviously, there's more to a program than the sum of its most common functions, but if you already know how those work the main code is that much easier to understand.

Alternately, you don't need to be able to name all the plants and flowers in a garden, and the common uses and symbolisms thereof, to appreciate some good landscaping, but it sure helps. Naming things. The more things you are able to name, the better. You'll never turn a work into a list of names, the same way a theorem isn't a list of names, but the better the names, the better, quicker the understanding, the easier and more precise the analysis. As Juan Ramon Jimenez would put it:

Intelligence, oh give me
the proper name for everything.
…So that my word be truly
the thing in itself,
created expressly for me by my soul.
That they follow my footsteps
all who have never known the nature of things;
that they follow my footsteps
all who have forgotten the nature of things;
that they follow, too, my footsteps
even they who have loved all things for themselves.
Intelligence, oh give me
the proper name, and your name,
and theirs, and mine, for all things.

Also, there's this very cute, very ecumenical little post I found by chance...

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
cityofmist turning and turning from Meanwhile City Since: Dec, 2010
turning and turning
#12: Apr 1st 2012 at 6:47:25 AM

There is a world more difference between Shakespeare and Rushdie than there is between hard sci-fi and space opera. Four hundred years of context, for a start, not to mention the fact that one is widely considered the most important writer in the English language...Saying that there 'can be just as much difference' between Shakespeare and Rushdie as there is between different genres of sci-fi is like saying that there can be just as much difference between Mozart and Bob Dylan as there is between Kanye West and Eminem.

With regards to the original question, I'm first going to point out that literary fiction is a very wide and ill-defined genre, and then suggest that you either start with the most well-known stuff in order to get a sense of how other people look at literature and work out what of that you're interested in, or that you walk into a bookshop, find something that looks interesting and reasonably well-written, and just read it.

Scepticism and doubt lead to study and investigation, and investigation is the beginning of wisdom. - Clarence Darrow
DoktorvonEurotrash Lex et Veritas from Not a place of honour (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#13: Apr 1st 2012 at 6:55:48 AM

[up]This.

They're just books. (Except for Shakespeare's plays, they're plays and should be watched.)

If you have problems with, say, Joyce's English, see if there's a good translation. Or just read a classic work in your own language instead.

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#14: Apr 1st 2012 at 7:11:10 AM

Ah, yes, I forgot to mention that I am not, in fact, a native English speaker. Though I have acquired a Certificate of Proficiency in English from Cambridge University, of which I am, I think, justifiably proud. But my mastery of the language is still quite incomplete.

By the way, do you know of any more shows or works that work on such a sustainedly high register as Yes Minister? I am finding their speech patterns utterly fascinating.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Aondeug Oh My from Our Dreams Since: Jun, 2009
Oh My
#15: Apr 1st 2012 at 11:46:16 AM

I'm a terrible fangirl so I will say "READ THE EPICS OMG". Gilgamesh, Mahabharata, Ramayana, The Illiad, The Odyssey, The Aeneid, Beowulf, and so on...My personal recommendation with the form would be either Beowulf or The Odyssey. They're on the short side when it comes to epic poetry and tell rather rousing and amusing tales. If you do read them do make sure to find verse translations of the works. I can't recall which translation of The Odyssey I read, but out of the many Beowulf translations I've read I like Ruth P.M. Lehmann's best because she does her best to preserve the poetic style of the Anglo-Saxons. Things like initial alliteration are strictly kept to. Even form wise it is presented as such. It helps in that it's pretty sounding too.

edited 1st Apr '12 11:46:51 AM by Aondeug

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#16: Apr 1st 2012 at 2:21:35 PM

You know, I always wondered why non-spanish-speakers tend to drop La Araucana from the list of great epics. It's like Pocahontas except with Manliness.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
FreezairForALimitedTime Responsible adult from Planet Claire Since: Jan, 2001
Responsible adult
#17: Apr 1st 2012 at 10:49:11 PM

What Yuan said.

To elaborate: Just read them like they're books, I guess. Don't give yourself "homework" like they do in literature classes, just focus on reading them and trying to enjoy them. You don't have to attempt to analyze them to death. Oh, and definitely try to see plays (either live or recorded) before reading them. Reading Shakespeare really isn't wise, even though that's how it's usually taught. Or any other play, for that matter.

"Proto-Indo-European makes the damnedest words related. It's great. It's the Kevin Bacon of etymology." ~Madrugada
Yuanchosaan antic disposition from Australia Since: Jan, 2010
antic disposition
#18: Apr 2nd 2012 at 4:21:54 AM

@The Handle: Re: wit and wordplay, try P.G. Wodehouse's Jeeves books. They are a treat. Oscar Wilde and Lord Byron are also good sources of wordiness and wit: I recommend The Importance Of Being Earnest and Don Juan respectively.

"Doctor Who means never having to say you're kidding." - Bocaj
DoktorvonEurotrash Lex et Veritas from Not a place of honour (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#19: Apr 2nd 2012 at 5:58:51 AM

@The Handle: I wouldn't mind reading La Araucana. I saw a discussion of it in a book about epic poetry by David Quint.

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#20: Apr 2nd 2012 at 3:25:41 PM

It's fairly easy to find in Spanish, and for very cheap. In English, it's extremely rare, and quite expensive.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
DomaDoma Three-Puppet Saluter Since: Jan, 2001
Three-Puppet Saluter
#21: Apr 3rd 2012 at 3:57:36 PM

Thanks for warning me against Pericles. I was curious, as the historical figure kicked ass and all, but if it's on the level of Titus Andronicus, yeah, no thanks.

Top of my Shakespeare to-do list is Richard III. I've heard all the Ricardian historical arguments first, so it should be an interesting experience.

Has anybody here read The Slap? Six-hundred-page epic about someone slapping someone else's kid at a barbecue and how that person, the kid, and a few close acquaintances react to it? On the one hand, it's a highly aberrant event well within the bounds of reality and no-murder-in-the-premise that lit fic requires, and so could well beat all hell out of the usual disaffected suburban upbringing. On the other hand, it also bears the potential to be molehill-inflatingly overwrought. So I'd like an advance verdict.

Hail Martin Septim!
Jhimmibhob Since: Dec, 2010
#22: Apr 3rd 2012 at 4:58:48 PM

Pericles is mighty bad, but it's got a high point in the recognition scene where the title character finally realizes his daughter is alive—worth looking at that passage, if nothing else. The bordello scene is also pretty funny: the virtuous Marina nearly puts the staff out of business by inspiring the clients to live better lives.

The interesting thing about the play is how easily you can distinguish the scenes Shakespeare wrote from those he didn't.

Yuanchosaan antic disposition from Australia Since: Jan, 2010
antic disposition
#23: Apr 4th 2012 at 12:44:36 AM

^^I've heard about The Slap, but I haven't read it. Someone recommended it to me...another book for my reading list.

^"I've been preached at in a bordello by a prostitute, and now I shall never go rutting again!"

edited 4th Apr '12 2:19:44 AM by Yuanchosaan

"Doctor Who means never having to say you're kidding." - Bocaj
LordGro (Old as dirt)
#24: Apr 4th 2012 at 1:53:12 AM

@Doma Doma: Just a side note, but Shakespeare's Pericles, Prince of Tyre is not about the historical Pericles of Athens, but a different, probably purely legendary Pericles.

Hilhog0 Since: Jan, 2011
#25: Apr 5th 2012 at 4:19:09 PM

I wouldn't start with Infinite Jest (if that counts as Lit Fic) or any Pynchon at all as you'll possibly just confuse yourself. If you were feeling brave you could give V a go perhaps... Would Brave New World or 1984 count as Lit Fic or Classics in this sense?

Danger's over, Banana Breakfast is saved. FC: 0576 - 4632 - 1517
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