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Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#24026: Aug 29th 2015 at 12:01:43 AM

And yet I still think the Saga was good. And no review on it made by anyone is going to change my mind.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#24027: Aug 29th 2015 at 12:17:32 AM

All of the Dragons were defeated by a Deus ex Machina.

Haze was beaten by an underground spring clearing up an airborn toxin.

Rage was beaten by rain.

Oceanus was beaten by a random bird pointing out her incredibly obvious weak spot.

Naturon was beaten when he taunted Goku by showing him Pan, by showing him the real Pan!

Nouva just decided that he wasn't evil anymore and the way he was beaten by Omega was stupid and implausible.

Eis lost a fight he was originally winning with ease for no reason and with one hit.

Finally, Omega was beaten with the Deus ex Machina Spirit Bomb that somehow made base Goku invincible.

edited 29th Aug '15 12:42:26 AM by PushoverMediaCritic

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#24028: Aug 29th 2015 at 12:20:57 AM

Okay, the Spirit Bomb thing was because the ki of it was so immense that it was acting as a barrier for Goku, and Eis was resulting to cheap tricks that entire fight, so he wasn't really winning.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#24029: Aug 29th 2015 at 12:22:21 AM

You completely made that first part up and winning through cheap tricks is still winning.

But I guess there's no point as you've already stated that discussion with you is pointless.

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#24030: Aug 29th 2015 at 12:35:43 AM

It's not that, I just won't let my opinions be influenced by the thoughts of others. I shouldn't be forced or strong-armed into changing my views if they don't go along with someone else's.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#24031: Aug 29th 2015 at 12:40:13 AM

...Or you could keep an open mind and accept that other people's views are just as valid as your own and try to see things from their perspective.

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#24032: Aug 29th 2015 at 12:47:08 AM

Oh, I accept they have opinions, doesn't mean I agree with them, it just means I'm not going to force them to accept my own point of view, since I'd be rude in doing so.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#24033: Aug 29th 2015 at 12:59:43 AM

I didn't say you had to agree with other people's opinion, you just shouldn't be rude when disagreeing.

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#24034: Aug 29th 2015 at 1:12:03 AM

...I actually don't see how I was rude. Sorry if it felt like I was.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
LOLypop1224 ...what am I even DOING here? Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
...what am I even DOING here?
#24035: Aug 29th 2015 at 2:06:27 AM

Yeah, I'm a little surprised the dragons didn't really have much to do with the wishes they used. They could have used them to actually explore the problems they had caused by virtue of their existence, but that never came up.

It was nice that Pan got into the action, though. Even if it made no sense. And she didn't amount to much in the final final battle.

The *Legendary* Super Saiyan is motivated by a crying infant! He is a literal giant f***ing baby!
JonnasN from Porto, Portugal Since: Jul, 2012
#24036: Aug 29th 2015 at 2:26:33 AM

My main problems with the saga were both [up] (for example, the wish to remove the bomb from 18 could've been a cyborg dragon, and the wish to erase Buu from everybody's memories could've created a Buu-Dragon) and the fact that all of them need to be dealt with by Goku and Pan, despite the series actually having an entire roster made up of capable fighters (those two I mentioned could've been fought by 18 and Uub, respectively). And then we have stupid things like Goku forgetting he can sense energy.

So yeah, even ignoring the moral ramifications, I feel it's still poorly written. The only good parts were the fight with the 7-star dragon and Goku swallowing the 4-star ball.

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#24037: Aug 29th 2015 at 4:19:47 AM

The Latin version of GT, at least, made it pretty damn clear that Goku was already dead when using the Genkidama against Omega Shenron, and that's the only reason why he 'survived' long enough to use it.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
IndirectActiveTransport plays capoeira from Chicago (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Every rose has its thorn
plays capoeira
#24038: Aug 29th 2015 at 8:44:33 AM

Skipping the issues with the very idea (because they've been touched on three times) the only dragon that should have been anywhere near a credible threat from a narrative perspective was Nova...maybe Sin too, but that's it.

Way back in the "Bebi" saga, it was stated little kid Goku, without any fancy transformations or special techniques, had the power to light up a galaxy. So Goku, transformed four times over has to deal with the oh so threatening powers of pollution(blow it away with you aura), earthquakes(fly), saltwater(see pollution) and ice(see pollution)?

At least with Nova Shenron, it was made clear his heat was "hotter than the sun", explaining why fire and a giant lens are adequate to battle the supposedly mighty super saiyan 4 but that's only one I even halfway bought. The electric slime thing could have been as believable as any other specialty technique used in Dragon Ball except right from the get go it was shown to be completely ineffective against Super Saiyan Goku 4(like everything else should have been)

But that applies to a lot of things GT (the Fusion of two Android 17s! That should be about as strong as Buu Saga Gotenks...as a plain super saiyan. Uubuu should have been able to beat him)

Now, touching on what I initially skipped, the bad"negative" kharma being stored within the dragon balls isn't the best idea, the retcon required not the least among the reasons against it. Use of the dragon balls displacing bad kharma in such a way a malevolent force(I'm guessing a corrupt group of Oni) could take advantage of it? That I could buy, with the mangarevival of F after life system (said malevolent force screwing with bad karma is disrupting the reincarnation process, making Freeza's punishment last even longer). That would also make using Dragon Balls to help solve the problem less jarring.

I could have also gone with shadow dragons that actually resemble the wishes they were based on, rather than the "classical elements" approach GT went with. Cyborg dragon in particular, who'd I'd base on the Evil Midnight Bomber, what bombs at midnight!

edited 29th Aug '15 8:46:57 AM by IndirectActiveTransport

Buldogue's lawyer
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#24039: Aug 29th 2015 at 8:48:18 AM

[up]

Midnight Bomber(what bombs at midnight) was The Tick dammit!!!!!

Edit: Wait, you fixed it while I was writing that. Good work man.

edited 29th Aug '15 8:48:50 AM by HandsomeRob

One Strip! One Strip!
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#24040: Aug 29th 2015 at 9:52:07 AM

I thought it'd be cool if the Shadow Dragons were attempting to repossess the wishes made to Shenron. Like, the panties dragon wants the panties back, and another dragon wants to re-age Piccolo, and one wants to kill Goku, etc.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#24041: Aug 29th 2015 at 9:54:19 AM

Now I want two dragons fighting over a large portion of the human race.

"But I was used to wish them back!"

"No, I was!"

My various fanfics.
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Reservoir A former adventurer... from Eastern US Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
A former adventurer...
#24043: Aug 29th 2015 at 10:10:33 AM

slides discreetly out of his SSJ argument, as he's spun himself into a circle thinking about it

Again, I've read about GT, but I've never watched it; that being said, I always liked the idea that the Dragons were based off of the wishes the Dragon Balls were used for. I think the justification for (Sin?) Shenron being the most powerful, because he was made from the wish to revive everyone killed by Frieza, is a bit silly, but...

I do like the idea, though, that the Dragons would want to reverse the wishes, as stated above. It would allow you to make them dark reflections of the wishes themselves, without making them comical.

edited 29th Aug '15 10:11:07 AM by Reservoir

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#24044: Aug 29th 2015 at 3:41:22 PM

Even though it runs into the "punished for being responsible" issue Saiga's post explained, I do find it interesting how the Shadow Dragon's brutality is inversely proportionate to the selfishness of the wish. Nuova was born from King Piccolo's selfish wish for eternal youth, and thus is pretty firmly a good guy. Oceanus was born from the morally-ambiguous panty wish, and as such displays both good and bad traits and does what she wants (Giving free fish to a village but at the same time wrecking their fishing market). Haze and Rage were both born from relatively selfless wishes to revive a single dead person, and as such are pretty evil but at the same time rather small-scale and petty. Naturon, Eis, and Syn were born from the three most selfless and large-scale wishes (Two mass revivals and the Buu fiasco being forgotten) and as such are easily the most unrepentant and evil of the seven.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#24045: Aug 29th 2015 at 3:44:11 PM

Though even that begs the question of why, if the point is to punish humans for being too reliant on the Balls, totally-selfless wishes produce the worst results.

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#24046: Aug 29th 2015 at 3:49:21 PM

Yeah, that's the exact problem with the premise. Ignoring the stupidity of the premise, though, I think it's interesting in detail. Though it's probably all coincidental, I can't imagine they put much thought into it.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
IndirectActiveTransport plays capoeira from Chicago (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Every rose has its thorn
plays capoeira
#24047: Aug 29th 2015 at 4:00:45 PM

But, with the exceptions of Dr. Gero and Cell, every dragon ball villain has comical moments. Okay, maybe not Filler, Non-Serial Movie and GT villains but they don't count.

Even Freeza, emperor of all evil, got bit by Goku and sent to a hell where he was tended to by fairy angels while walking teddy bears marched around him.

Shadow Dragons. Another problem is that Nova Shenron, one of the few things I say was "good" about GT, was created by King Piccolo's wish for his youth and power. That was a "bad" wish that did nothing to displace good kharma. I'll give some credit in that it makes sense for Nova to be the "good" dragon, since he was born from a "bad" wish, but it'd make more sense, or at least be more consistent, to just use a "good" wish to begin with.

Okay, dragons related to wishes...we already got cyborg dragon and Majin Buu dragon...A dragon based on Bora, guardian of Korin tower? A dragon who fights with a spear? Might be too similar to Dabura but it's all I got for now.

The wish to revive Goku is easy, a dragon version of Goku. Eats a lot, uses an important artifact as a bludgeon, flies on a cloud, has multiple transformations.

Panties are tough one, all I can think of is are panties with a mouth, legs and scales.

Youth and power is also a really vague wish. I guess we could make a Namekian dragon but Cymbal already was one of those, not to mention Porunga, not to mention that wasn't a "good" wish(like the one made to revive Piccolo's victims), so we're replacing it with the wish to remove the self destruct devices from the Androids to create cyborg bomber dragon.

Syn Shenron actually was a decent Freeza dragon, what with the pointy bits and transformation. The absorbing of people and using their powers made him more like Cell though (now why didn't the GT writers use the wish to restore Cell's victims, a "good" wish that should have dispersed the bad kharma caused by Cell's actions? Too much time between wishes? Well there was plenty of time between Majin Vegeta\Buu and Android 18, so that doesn't hold up)

Buldogue's lawyer
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#24048: Aug 29th 2015 at 4:11:01 PM

I actually do think that's pretty interesting.

I suppose maybe that black dragon that appeared before the balls split off just has a twisted sense of humour. Make the dragons evil based on the inverse selfishness of the wish.

Or it's just poorly thought out bullshit. Whichever floats your boats.

One Strip! One Strip!
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#24049: Aug 29th 2015 at 4:13:14 PM

There are actually three wishes in the original series that don't bring forth a Shadow Dragon: revive King Piccolo's victims, revive Cell's victims, and remove the bombs in the Androids.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#24050: Aug 29th 2015 at 4:21:16 PM

There's only seven dragons.

Something was gonna be left out, unless they spontaneously made three more balls, or had some of them formed from more than one wish.

One Strip! One Strip!

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