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TheMageofFire Since: May, 2012
#24001: Aug 28th 2015 at 6:21:03 PM

It's ok Rob, I created a gigantic nonflammable Senzu Bean tree.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#24002: Aug 28th 2015 at 6:25:45 PM

I learned it from Cell.

Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#24003: Aug 28th 2015 at 6:25:57 PM

*eats the Senzu tree*

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
TheMageofFire Since: May, 2012
#24004: Aug 28th 2015 at 6:28:49 PM

IT's ok, I made it so when the tree touches stomach acid it turns the person into twenty more trees.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#24005: Aug 28th 2015 at 6:28:56 PM

.....

Why would you eat a tree?

One Strip! One Strip!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#24006: Aug 28th 2015 at 6:29:05 PM

Okay, that's just petty.

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#24007: Aug 28th 2015 at 6:38:18 PM

Trees are our friends.

Threes are hour friends.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Guy01 Since: Mar, 2015
#24008: Aug 28th 2015 at 6:42:17 PM

Groot is our friend.

Ok, who let Light Yagami in here?
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#24009: Aug 28th 2015 at 6:52:36 PM

Now, if we're talking the evil tree of might, then you can eat it.....after partaking of it's fruit.cool

One Strip! One Strip!
Reservoir A former adventurer... from Eastern US Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
A former adventurer...
#24010: Aug 28th 2015 at 7:20:17 PM

To derail the current crazy stuff...

Why didn't Goku continue doing the whole "Fully-Realized" Super Saiyan thing - the one where he could stay in SSJ indefinitely? It seemed to be a big deal at the time, as it severely lessened the strain of the form on the body. I always imagined that, at the time he got it, Gohan's SSJ2 form was only as stressful on his body as regular SSJ was on a normal Saiyan, simply because he'd gotten used to SSJ to the point it was his 'default' state. This also part of my personal Fanon as to why Vegeta didn't show SSJ2 until after the Majin mark was on his head, as it should've been much more difficult for a regular Saiyan to attain the form without having first 'mastered' SSJ first, even if one counts the whole "need, not want" factor.

In relation to that, hasn't Toriyama given an Ass Pull about how, if one masters SSJ, then they can eventually gain the power boosts of SSJ2 and SSJ3 without all the transformation crap? Wouldn't that be really, really useful for Goku and company?

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#24011: Aug 28th 2015 at 7:37:46 PM

Goku presumably did fully master SSJ 2. That was probably part of the development process for SSJ 3. He just has no reason to be in that form if he doesn't need to, and before Majin Buu came around, there was exactly one guy who was powerful enough to cause Goku to need to go SSJ 2, and that was Vegeta, who was on his side.

Vegeta presumably also fully mastered SSJ 2, he just doesn't use it because, again, there is exactly one guy who can push him to that level.

Put simply:

Before Majin Buu arrives, absolutely nothing Babidi could throw at them was the slightest bit threatening to Goku or Vegeta.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#24012: Aug 28th 2015 at 7:39:34 PM

Vegeta did master Super Saiyan 1, and did achieve Super Saiyan 2 before Babidi.

There's no telling if Super Saiyan 2 or 3 can be mastered in the same way.

edited 28th Aug '15 7:39:47 PM by Saiga

Reservoir A former adventurer... from Eastern US Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
A former adventurer...
#24013: Aug 28th 2015 at 7:54:30 PM

[up][up]I thought the whole mastery thing required one to always be in that form? Like Goku and Gohan after they went through the RoSaT?

[up]When did Vegeta gain/master the SSJ2 form? I mean, wasn't the whole point of him going 'Majin' was to gain it, and therein match/exceed Goku so they could fight on even terms? At the time, he had no idea that SSJ3 existed, and I would think he figured Goku had attained SSJ2, so it stands to reason that bridging the power-gap between them was the only reason he'd accepted the Majin mark.

edited 28th Aug '15 7:54:50 PM by Reservoir

Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#24014: Aug 28th 2015 at 7:57:39 PM

[up] Presumably some time during the seven year time skip between sagas.

Also, if memory serves (it's been a very long time), Vegeta let Babidi "control" him only because he thought that his attachment to his family and other softer emotions were holding him back. I really don't think it actually increased his power.

edited 28th Aug '15 7:58:02 PM by Zelenal

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
Reservoir A former adventurer... from Eastern US Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
A former adventurer...
#24015: Aug 28th 2015 at 8:07:26 PM

[up]That's possible; my memory on that is honestly more limited than I'd like to think :( I still don't quite get it, as it doesn't really seem very useful for Vegeta if it doesn't produce some sort of power boost. I get that his attachment to his family might give him pause on beating Goku senseless, what with him being his wifes friend and all, but I think he could've done it.

Also, if I remember correctly, we don't even see Vegeta in a SSJ2 state until after he's controlled by Babadi, nor is even mentioned before that. Kinda points to the fact that, due to the "need, not want" policy of SSJ transformations, he never could quite get it without an external source.

Then again, if you look at it that way, none of the Saiyan characters ever breached a SSJ form without an external source. The only time that rule was broken was with SSJ3, but that form A) creates a heavy physical taxation on the body, which makes me think it's like the 'Ascended Super Saiyan' version of SSJ2, and B) seems to end up being better suited for an afterlife body, because said body can seemingly handle more physical stress than a normal 'living' body.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#24016: Aug 28th 2015 at 8:08:09 PM

[up][up][up] Not always. You just need to do it constantly until you can maintain the form. That's why Goku and Gohan don't need to be in the form after the Cell arc.

Vegeta and Trunks mastered it during their second trip, Goku and Gohan still kept using the form during the days leading up to the Cell Games because they left the room early and were still training.

Vegeta then earned Super Saiyan 2 during the timeskip. The majin charm just gave him a potential unlock like Guru did for Kuririn/Gohan, and Super Saiyan 2 was purely him. He didn't even transform into the form until his fight with Goku was about to begin.

[up][up] Nah, his power is definitely noted to increase by Babidi. But it's a potential unlock deal.

[up] Goku achieved Super Saiyan 2 purely on his own, Gotenks achieved Super Saiyan 2 and 3 through training. And Vegeta is confirmed to have received 2 through training as well, the reason it isn't shown before his Majin boost is because the fact that he has it is meant to come as a surprise when he's about to fight Goku. Because that's what leads to Boo being released, both of them having Super Saiyan 2.

edited 28th Aug '15 8:10:06 PM by Saiga

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#24017: Aug 28th 2015 at 8:10:16 PM

Eh, I assume they can master SSJ 2 because there's nothing that tells us they can't.

Particularly when you consider that when it was introduced, it was universally better to the first transformation and did not have any apparent downsides.

[up]I've always thought that it was less "Potential Unlocked" and more "Inhibitions Released".

edited 28th Aug '15 8:11:56 PM by IAmNotCreativeEnough

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Reservoir A former adventurer... from Eastern US Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
A former adventurer...
#24019: Aug 28th 2015 at 8:20:44 PM

Ah, thanks for the clarification everyone! I still don't quite buy the idea that SSJ doesn't become your base form once you master it, but that's why I write fan fiction lol. Also, I could've swore Vegeta went SSJ2 as soon as the Majin mark went into full effect, but I'll take that I'm wrong there, as well as being wrong on the 'potential unlocked' aspect of the Majin mark.

As for Goku going SSJ2 via training, I always forgot that...I actually liked the Otherworld Tournament saga, even if it was filler, and I always count most everything about it in my Fanon; I even count the whole 'Super Kaio Ken' thing. Thus, I forget that Goku didn't really gain SSJ2 against Pikkon.

EDIT: I never watched GT, so I have no opinions on that beyond "I honestly like the concept and execution of SSJ4, and I'm sad that it's not canon". For everything else, I don't care.

I'd also like to take a moment to ask: why do a lot of people seem to have a hard time differentiating between SSJ and SSJ2? I mean, the hair is a dead giveaway. SSJ has slightly spiky hair, but SSJ2 has hair that's so spiky it clumps together into numerous spikes. Naturally, if you take the spiky hair clumps of SSJ3, and merge that with the general hair-shape of SSJ, you get the idea fairly easy.

edited 28th Aug '15 8:25:32 PM by Reservoir

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#24020: Aug 28th 2015 at 8:53:41 PM

I still don't quite buy the idea that SSJ doesn't become your base form once you master it

Goku and Gohan prove that is 100% wrong.

[up][up] You may be interested in my thoughts on the matter, which goes into more detail than that post.

edited 28th Aug '15 8:58:23 PM by Saiga

Reservoir A former adventurer... from Eastern US Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
A former adventurer...
#24021: Aug 28th 2015 at 9:32:01 PM

[up]How do they prove me wrong, exactly? They both still transform to SSJ after the Cell games, though usually just so they can step up to SSJ2. Still, if they've mastered it to the point that it's not needed for them to achieve the x50 power bonus, or if they've made the x50 power bonus their normal maximum, then it's useless to even transform into it - they should just shoot straight from base into SSJ2. Hell, the fact that Goku explicitly goes through 1, 2, and 3 before sparring against Beerus in Battle of Gods tells me that regular SSJ still grants some sort of bonus, or at least something of worth to even be mentioned.

It'd be a situation like with 'Mystic Gohan', where he had his power tapped to the point he could go up to the SSJ2 power boost, and probably even beyond, without transforming. Elder Kai even stated that it was pretty pointless for him to transform now, because he had full access to that power without the transformations.

I do apologize now if I come across as unreasonably annoying or argumentative; I am extremely nit-picky, and I like to learn the "hows" and "whys" - aka I'm a WMG'er - and I tend to want to flesh things out waaaaaaay past necessity. If there's something in the canon sources that can shut me up, please reference it.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#24022: Aug 28th 2015 at 9:40:13 PM

Wait, now what are you trying to argue? You just said Super Saiyan became their base forms, then gave examples of why it still must give some boost.

Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#24023: Aug 28th 2015 at 9:40:23 PM

The only thing that mastering Super Saiyan did was make it so that the ki drain from it was practically nil. This allows them to maintain the form theoretically indefinitely and lets them focus their ki into their attacks and defense.

From a certain point of view, it's basically the same as when Goku learned how to eliminate unnecessary movement from Mr. Popo. Goku didn't technically become any faster from that, he just seemed faster than before due to more efficient movement. Likewise, Goku and Gohan didn't become more powerful through mastering Super Saiyan, it just seems that way since they can use their ki more efficiently.

Well, and the rest of training also helped.

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#24024: Aug 28th 2015 at 9:40:58 PM

That's a very good analysis of everything wrong with the Shadow Dragon Saga Saiga. I agree with everything you said.

BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#24025: Aug 28th 2015 at 10:46:01 PM

Yeah, I feel like the Shadow Dragon Saga was a good idea in concept (not the "don't be irresponsible with the balls" but the "dragon balls create a new enemy to deal with"), but was completely ruined.

Which pretty much sums up GT. :P

what do you mean I didn't win, I ate more wet t-shirts than anyone else

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