(x5)Yeah, but this
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(x4)Well I like the idea, explains why the 5th form would be so dramatically below Golden Freeza.
Weaker, with the exception of 13.
15 and 14 got beat by Super Saiyans, 13 fought evenly with one, whereas 18 pulverized a Super Saiyan, and 17 fought evenly with a Super Namek. Super 13, though, was able to put down Vegeta, Trunks, Piccolo, and Goku in short order.
I don't know why Gero keeps building things so that the earlier model upgrades itself by devouring the later ones, instead of the other way around, or simply building the newer one stronger.
edited 24th Aug '15 7:26:11 PM by Soble
I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!The Super 13 movie was set before anyone entered the hyperbolic time chamber given the looks of the characters. Super Saiyan Trunks and Super Saiyan Vegeta were strong enough to defeat Android 14 and 15 on their own. 13 was even with Super Saiyan Goku. When 13 absorbed 14 and 15 he was stronger then all 3 of them plus Piccolo, who may or may not have fused with Kami at that point(which would have made him stronger than the 3 Super Saiyans) At best I'd say Super 13 was even with Android 16.
Well, we all know the pacifists are the most powerful characters in the story. Or, at least, they used to be.
I really doubt Vegeta achieved Super Saiyan long before the Androids. Knowing Vegeta, he would have raced to rematch Goku as soon as he obtained the form. After all, that was still his driving force, more than the threat of the Androids.
The *Legendary* Super Saiyan is motivated by a crying infant! He is a literal giant f***ing baby!Vegeta was already a Super Saiyan in this scene. Also, when it comes to gravity it isn't purely about power, but being used to it - Yamcha has the same reaction to 10x gravity that a roughly 3x weaker Goku does, and even Gohan is taken aback by 10x gravity when he's first introduced to it in the RoSaT - despite being literally thousands of times stronger than either. But at any rate, it's only shown that Vegeta and Trunks both can handle the gravity as Super Saiyan.
They're on par with the adults. Definitely weaker, but still decently close given that Goten and Gohan spar evenly while both are Super Saiyans, Trunks can easily handle the gravity Vegeta trains in (and land a blow on his face when Vegeta is trying his best not to dodge), and all but explicitly confirmed as being stronger than Piccolo (well, it IS explicit if you count the guidebooks).
I started this in response to claims that the entirety of Dragon Ball since Raditz was Gohan's Story, that the Saiyan Saga and Freiza Saga were build-up for Gohan taking the torch from Goku in the Cell Games, and that Goku taking back the torch in the Buu Saga is thus a betrayal of everything the story has ever been about.
I'm going to just reply to this part for now, because I think you're right, which should probably be cleared up before anything else.
I know someone mentioned that Saiyan onwards is Gohan's story around the time I made my original post, but I wasn't intending to support that argument. My argument was that Gohan being chosen as the protagonist had enough elements to support it from earlier parts of the story.
So given that, is there a point in continuing?
I know someone mentioned that Saiyan onwards is Gohan's story around the time I made my original post, but I wasn't intending to support that argument. My argument was that Gohan being chosen as the protagonist had enough elements to support it from earlier parts of the story.
So given that, is there a point in continuing?
I don't think so. We're in agreement on that. Dragon Ball post-Raditz wasn't "Gohan's Story," but Gohan taking the torch was narratively consistent with the events that led up to it.
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.I'd like to point out that Goten having an easier time with Super Saiyan because his father had already reached it is not a case of Lamarak Genetics.
Certain triggers get "turned off", so to speak, when not in use and can be more difficult to "turn on" if child's parent was in such a state at the time.
Doesn't mean that you can't be a marathon runner just because your mom and dad were both fat asses when they had you, but it does make it likely that brother of yours they had after becoming fitness nuts will have an easier time getting in shape than you do.
I'm not even saying the Goten theory is true, it probably isn't, but it would be a reasonable explanation as to why Goten got to turn super faster than Gohan. Trunks being Goten's contemporary suggests it is unlikely, but still doesn't make it completely impossible. Genetics can be fickle, even without taking mutations into account.(Trunks turns Super Saiyan at an early age to radiation induced mutations caused in Vegeta's stock during his multiple interstellar travels)
Pan inheriting Gohan's elder kai power up would have been completely possible though, since it's explicitly magic, being the result of a forced fusion between a Kaioshin and a witch. I'm waiting for the baby born as a super saiyan god super saiyan.
Buldogue's lawyerWhat's sad is that this would work a lot, but they probably won't do it.
So not only does Gohan just lose his new power-up, but they will willfully ignore a good explanation for it because girls can't be important in this series.
Pan will never go Super Saiyan, and they just don't care to try and explain it.
One Strip! One Strip!

Given that the species/race/clan/family shows an ability to radically alter their appearance, I would say... nah, it is probably a biological ability they have, one that Cooler just so happened to use for the opposite reason it is normally used.
himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari