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Guy01 Since: Mar, 2015
#23801: Aug 23rd 2015 at 5:37:20 PM

[up]Agreed. DB Super Beerus comes off, IMO, as a badly Villain Sue. Which, I get it, he was every bit as insanely powerful in the movies, but the movies at least balanced it more by giving him fun stuff to do and funnier moments. Super...doesn't seem to have that for him.

I know he's Cosmically Powerful, and that's fine, but Super Beerus just comes off as a bad character.

I don't know, maybe I'm wording it wrong....but do you get what I'm trying to say?

Ok, who let Light Yagami in here?
Guy01 Since: Mar, 2015
#23802: Aug 23rd 2015 at 5:38:23 PM

Also, if somebody could slap Chi-Chi, that would be great.

I did kinda like Yamcha's moment though.

Ok, who let Light Yagami in here?
BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#23803: Aug 23rd 2015 at 5:41:40 PM

Yeah, BOG!Beerus was funny, kind of petty, but also Affably Evil.

Super!Beerus is just an unpleasant character all around. I thought at first that it was just me and I would adjust, but no, he's actually quite different here. He's basically just a Generic Doomsday Villain with no sense of humor.

Also, since when did he get telekinesis?

what do you mean I didn't win, I ate more wet t-shirts than anyone else
Guy01 Since: Mar, 2015
#23804: Aug 23rd 2015 at 5:42:51 PM

[up]To be somewhat fair on that last one, even chumps like Supreme Kai and Guldo had telekinesis. tongue

But I agree on the rest. [tup]

Ok, who let Light Yagami in here?
BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#23805: Aug 23rd 2015 at 5:44:15 PM

I mean, telekinesis isn't really reliant on physical strength, since Chiotzu has it. But still, I don't remember Beerus ever displaying that ability in either of the movies.

edited 23rd Aug '15 5:48:47 PM by BaconManiac5000

what do you mean I didn't win, I ate more wet t-shirts than anyone else
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#23806: Aug 23rd 2015 at 5:47:08 PM

I get the feeling that telekinesis is pretty easy to learn.

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#23807: Aug 23rd 2015 at 5:48:08 PM

The weakest Z-fighter having telekinesis is believable, but not the universe's highest god?

BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#23808: Aug 23rd 2015 at 5:49:27 PM

I kind of meant that it wasn't impossible for him to have had it, but it was never previously established.

Also, is it just me or was the latest episode just five minutes of BOG, but exaggerated Up To Eleven?

Like, everyone just flailing angrily at Beerus, Gotenks being punished like a child (which is what he is :P) but more ridiculously, Gohan taken out even faster, Whis basically having an orgasm from eating sushi, and Bulma getting slapped in Dramatic Slow Mo.

Also, Vegeta having a stroke the entire episode. :P

what do you mean I didn't win, I ate more wet t-shirts than anyone else
IndirectActiveTransport plays capoeira from Chicago (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Every rose has its thorn
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#23809: Aug 23rd 2015 at 5:56:36 PM

There's still hope, in the sense there is still a "super" dragon ball hunt, which could introduce new cast members who can keep up with Goku and Vegeta(hopefully displace Vegeta, but that's unlikely)

Really, I had no idea where I would take Dragon Ball after Buu Saga if that was my job. Well, I had the idea of how to redo GT better but plenty of people have thought of that. I guessed that Uub and Pan could have adventures in the that demon world East Kaioshin talked about and I knew I wanted to have Goku encounter more Journey To The West elements but did not know how to make them believable given what information we had on the setting. I knew I wanted to something with grown older Goten and Trunks but didn't know where to start, especially after Dragon Ball Online came out, since I didn't want to be too similar to it.

Pretty much all my ideas came after the revelations there would be exploration of these other "universes", there would be enemies stronger than Majin Buu and that there would be a hunt for a new set of Dragon Balls. How to build up to those events, how to actually go about them, what to do with all the characters, I literally can't stop thinking of things to do now if I start thinking of Dragon Ball. Even with the further revelation they'd be padding episode length by redoing Battle Of Gods and Revival Of F.

I'd like to think someone whose job is to actually do these things could come up with a million ideas all far better than mine and although TOEI Animation is an exception, I have little faith in that company, Toriyama is supposed to be helping this time. If they blow it, it won't surprise me. Super has already disappointed me since the intro made it seem like they still had something meaningful to do with SS3 but so far haven't given any further reason to think so, but I haven't given up hope completely.

Buldogue's lawyer
BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#23810: Aug 23rd 2015 at 6:05:05 PM

Oh yeah, I hope they get rid of the one character who isn't Goku that's still relevant. That would certainly be for the best.

what do you mean I didn't win, I ate more wet t-shirts than anyone else
IndirectActiveTransport plays capoeira from Chicago (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Every rose has its thorn
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#23811: Aug 23rd 2015 at 6:42:20 PM

Not if they replace him with three more. I'm thinking Goku goes on a new Dragon Ball hunt with a godly grounds keeper and cosmic ferryman who practice martial arts in their free time, the three of them guided by a sage on pilgrimage through a dangerous area and agrees to guide them to the super dragon balls on the way in exchange for protection.

And I don't mean get rid of Vegeta, I don't even mean reduce Vegeta to Gohan's current level of irrelevance, can't do that for awhile now since not only is this a prequel to what was the best time to do that(and this prequel has almost assuredly ruined that moment anyway) but Vegeta is getting Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, which means we might as well make the best of that power up.

I mean displace him in relation to Goku. I'm thinking shenanigans happen because of Champa and Whine, Goku gets blown away, ends up in universe six and wants its Dragon Balls because he thinks they can get him back home. The grounds keeper is throwing a destructive tantrum over losing his job, Goku decides to fight him, ends up saving the sage, everyone calms down, realization they can all help one another sets in, they call the ferryman and they're off, to have adventures and punch things.

Meanwhile, back on Earth, Beerus and Whis go chasing after Champa and Whine, the Briefs' science, the Earth Dragon Balls, the knowledge of the Kais, Tarble helping to make Vegeta Super Saiyan God with Pan, ect are needed to survive the disastrous fallout from Champa and Whine's misdeed.

An exhausted, hungry Goku returns after the day is saved, stories are exchanged. We see if Super gets renewed for another season.

Buldogue's lawyer
Beaver Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#23812: Aug 23rd 2015 at 6:44:12 PM

Didn't I hear somewhere that Super involved traveling through alternate universes?

Is this a Jo Jo reference?
Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#23813: Aug 23rd 2015 at 6:44:39 PM

Okay, will the fanbase be pissed now that there are Black Star Super Dragonballs?

Oh hey, others liked Wrath of the Dragon. I didn't know whether I should have been embarrassed by liking it or not.

Pretty much the only time Super Saiyan 3 was worth a damn, I liked that movie.

I hated it because Vegeta got stomped in under half a minute, definitely a record at that time.

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
LOLypop1224 ...what am I even DOING here? Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
...what am I even DOING here?
#23814: Aug 23rd 2015 at 6:58:38 PM

Wrath of the Dragon is the only DBZ movie that tries to...you know...have character growth, as opposed to just fighting. And I really like how it focuses on Kid Trunks.

I also like Bojack because it's the only theoretical glimpse we see into the years between Cell and Buu.

I really didn't like DBS 7. Not just because the side characters didn't do anything. It just felt unnecessary. And weirdly written. Like, Beerus is just chilling, waiting for the heroes to decide to attack him? And then there's the stuff with Whis and sushi and it kills the pace.

Glad I'm not the only one who thought the 'My Bulma' scene was Narmy. They were just making it overdramatic. It was supposed to be short, sweet and unexpected. Not built up to SSJ 2 Gohan levels.

No wonder everyone thought he was going to go SSJ 3.

The *Legendary* Super Saiyan is motivated by a crying infant! He is a literal giant f***ing baby!
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#23815: Aug 23rd 2015 at 7:55:09 PM

Can I say I like, in the Super manga, Beerus's shock that someone actually defeated Frieza, and that this is what makes him think such a person must be the Super Saiyan God? Sure, Beerus is several orders of magnitude stronger, but since he just woke up he wouldn't know about Cell being created on Earth or Buu being released of Earth. As far as he knows, Frieza's the next one down from himself.

BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#23816: Aug 23rd 2015 at 10:33:35 PM

I hated it because Vegeta got stomped in under half a minute, definitely a record at that time.

Yeah, me too, but what can you do? :/

what do you mean I didn't win, I ate more wet t-shirts than anyone else
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#23817: Aug 24th 2015 at 1:11:37 AM

Wait a minute... the gap between Shenlong reviving Goku for the Saiyan Saga and Popo summoning him to revive the population of Namek is way, WAY shorter than a year! What gives? And why am I seemingly the first person ever to notice this?

Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#23818: Aug 24th 2015 at 1:16:58 AM

You remember when Kami restored the Dragon Balls after the Piccolo Daimaou Saga and that allowed them to get their wish much sooner? Basically the exact same thing was likely at play here.

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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#23819: Aug 24th 2015 at 6:12:27 AM

Yeah, the balls going inert (evil grin) or the dragon dying in some way resets the amount of time it takes for them to recharge for a new wish to zero.

Which makes me think they could make more wishes if they killed the dragon after all their wishes are done, and then had the guardian (Dende now) revive him.

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Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#23820: Aug 24th 2015 at 7:28:43 AM

...Beerus thought the Dragon Balls were a type of food. He actually asked what they tasted like.

Not even Goku, patron god of gluttony, was ever shown making this error. Now I imagine Gohan having to hide the Four-Star Ball until he could explain its significance to Goku. That or Goku decided not to eat it purely on the belief that it was his grandpa's soul.

edited 24th Aug '15 7:34:10 AM by Soble

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#23821: Aug 24th 2015 at 7:30:26 AM

No, his point of view is followed alongside Goku's.

I really don't agree with this because I don't think Goku's point of view really is followed as much (and he becomes quite mysterious) but even if it were that just makes his view point equal to the current main character which doesn't exactly hurt his case.

Yes. And, at the same time, Goku's journey is establishing the afterlife system of the setting and introducing a valuable new character: Kaio-sama. Not just learning to become more powerful, Goku spends this downtime the same way he spent it in Piccolo Daimao's arc: fleshing out the cosmology and meeting important new characters.

Right, I didn't mean to imply Goku did nothing of importance but my point was more that Gohan had something important that was totally separate from Goku. In terms of importance those things, I feel, are about equally important.

Gohan barely had any idea what was even happening. He transformed because Goku told him to look at the sky, then he won the fight by falling on Vegeta after the latter severed his tail. The "final blow" was literally Vegeta being crushed by the collapse of the final foe he defeated.

Which leaves out that Gohan still attacked Vegeta and became a threat Vegeta needed to shut down. The fact that he was out of it doesn't mean much because the same can be said for Goku when he saved everyone from Pilaf - he didn't intend to transform, and he wasn't controlling himself. Strikingly similar considering those are respectively their debut arcs, as well.

Prior to that was the entire fight against Goku, Yajirobe landing two good hits (one game-changing), Krillin and Gohan hitting him with the Genki-Dama, etc. The physical battle against Nappa and Vegeta weren't about anyone. It was the cast's opportunity to get together for a final hurrah. Everyone had a chance to play, even Yajirobe.

I was never trying to say the battle was about someone. Just that it's not right to describe Gohan as Goku's weapon to both undersell Gohan and oversell Goku.

Piccolo's redemption was about Piccolo, not Gohan. Gohan had no agency in that; Piccolo chose to train him, Piccolo became close to him, Piccolo realized that bringing Gohan to fight was a mistake, and Piccolo took a bullet for him while Gohan stood paralyzed with fear.

It's really about both of them. Without Gohan, Piccolo wouldn't have gone through that development. You're making it sound as though Piccolo went through all that development purely on his own, which contradicts the story. Piccolo decided to train Gohan for Gohan's potential, got close to Gohan for Gohan's innocence, realized it was a mistake because of Gohan's gentleness, and took the bullet because all of the above. I wasn't saying it was about Gohan alone, but he was definitely the cause of Piccolo's change.

No, it's not. Vegeta's view of the events is followed closely.

Both are, it's not like only one view can be viewed closely. We see Gohan's perspective of things right from the lead in to the arc where he gives his reasoning for going to Namek.

  • Attacking Dodoria is just as important from a narrative sense, if not more so. And in terms of keeping people alive, if Gohan hadn't acted Dende wouldn't be alive which would have caused a whole lot of shit later on. Yes, Kuririn's quick thinking saves all of them, but that's only possible because Gohan originally saves Dende. So he necessitates being saved himself, while saving someone else and moving the plot forward. I'd say that is a bigger contribution in a meta sense than Kuririn.
  • It's funny how you say I callously disregarded the details of Goku's adventure of the Saiyan arc and then you turn around and do the same thing with Gohan. Repeatedly. Gohan's adventure was more than just the encounter with Vegeta, it also involved him stealing Vegeta's ball before hand which prevented Vegeta from getting the full set. The whole password/Namekian language deal kinda undermines this, but it does the same thing with Kuririn's Dragon Ball escapades. And both of them went to the Guru - there really isn't a significant differences between Kuririn being there alone and Gohan being there with Kuririn outside.
  • Sure, but that doesn't really take away from Gohan at all. I think it's worth noting that even when paired with Kuririn like that, he has the speech against Recoome, the touching moment with Goku, and the emotional turmoil to deal with Ginyu-Goku. But it's not like someone can only be protagonist material if they constantly overshine their secondary characters or Goku wouldn't fit either.
  • Gohan has a moment against both Freeza's second and third form. Kuririn and Piccolo both have their moments against only the second form of Freeza.
  • Saving Piccolo is completely different from support. He was more active against Freeza's third form than Piccolo was, who immediately tried to flee and was beaten down. Gohan's was the one who saved Piccolo, temporarily pinned Freeza, had several characters marvel at his post-Zenkai power, and was praised by Piccolo. Piccolo also saved Gohan in turn from the reflected blast, but did nothing to outshine Gohan here.
  • That's not really about perspective though. Yeah, Kuririn was consistently important throughout the Namek arc, but when looking at Goku vs Gohan that's not very significant.

I'm not saying Gohan was the main character of Namek, or the Saiyan arc. But he has enough importance, focus and perspective in both of these arcs to be consistent with the later decision to make him the main character. But hell, even calling him Kuririn's sidekick doesn't diminish him because there's absolutely nothing that prevents a main character from being the sidekick to a more experienced secondary character.

A lot of things become obvious with hindsight in stories that may never have been intended in the first place. Good writing builds on what came before in such a way that the events that come seem organic and natural.

That's a pretty dismissive response. While it's true, it doesn't actually address what I said - do you have any reason whatsoever to imply that wasn't intended? I am certainly assuming said hints were planned in advance, however given how small a timeframe we're talking and how blatant the hints were (Gohan unimpressed by Goku's strength, a combination of Goku being unable to win but being blissfully confident, Goku's continued comments on Gohan) I feel it's quite unreasonable to dismiss them like that.

And even if it wasn't intentional, that still wouldn't change that Gohan's takeover had a build up that Goku's takeover did not. Like you said, it's good writing to make it seem that way.

Buu's absorption ability was established when Evil Buu and Mr. Buu fought.

No it wasn't, because the ability used there is completely different. Pure Evil Boo devours his other half and becomes whole again with himself in control. However, eating other characters never brings on the traits of absorption. You can say they're too weak as the only possible defense but that would still be wrong as Dabra is stronger than Piccolo and yet his being eaten produces no apparent change in Boo.

So between the two abilities we have completely different methods of intake (eating a candified person vs detaching part of his body and using that to ensnare the target and merging with that) and completely different results (no visible change for unrelated entities vs adding an unrelated entities powers, abilities and appearance to the mix). The fact that Evil Boo could merge with his other half does not mean he had the ability to absorb everyone, especially not through a different and more convenient method.

It's also part of his backstory. Not an Ass Pull.

That doesn't actually mean anything, because his backstory came after the fact. Ass Pull does not care for in-universe chronology. It came out of nowhere, and then sometime after that it was tied into his previously completely unexplored backstory. Is an Ass Pull.

Potara is just a fresh method for Fusion since Fusion Reborn beat Toriyama to Gogeta. Not really an Ass Pull since it's just standing in for a plot device already firmly established. Suddenly defusing was an Ass Pull due to the build up of the Potara being permanent, granted, but it makes narrative sense since the method they were supposed to use wasn't.

The fact that metamoran fusion exists doesn't remove all the Ass Pull aspects of it: yes, Metamoran lays the basis for fusion, that's fine. But it does nothing to change that this second method of fusion had no build up - nothing built up the Kaioshin having access to their own method of fusion, nothing really explained why they had it, and it came up immediately before it was needed to serve the plot. Their use in the Old Kaioshin's backstory only comes up when the Potara's potential to fuse comes up, so that doesn't excuse it either. Is an Ass Pull.

"Special treatment?"

Boo's exact words. When Goku and Vegeta are in Evil Boo's body, he mentions that Boo received special treatment which is why he appears in a pod along with the other absorbees. Perfect spot for Goku and Vegeta to grab him.

...you are seriously calling Buu's natural state an Ass Pull? I'm not even going to dignify that.

Yes, I am, because it's perfectly valid when you stop and remember that Boo's natural state in-universe has absolutely no bearing on the writing of things leading up to that point. Because Boo's natural state didn't exist in the story until its introduction, and that introduction had no build up at all. Mr Boo is pulled free, and... it turns out all along Boo had an unmentioned original form that is right around Goku's strength! That's what I mean. His "natural state" is an Ass Pull because it comes right out of nowhere, and from an out-of-universe view it is not his original form. The original Boo that Toriyama designed was Fat Boo. The original alter-ego was Pure Evil Boo. Pure Boo was introduced after this, so don't act give me that "deserves no dignity" type of response.

Raditz and Frieza also cast doubt on Goku's ability to save the day before it turned out that he would. Frieza moreso than any arc, spending so much time firmly establishing that Goku could not beat Frieza before having him unlock the Super Saiyan transformation and beat Frieza.

Even after Gohan stepped up, the Cell Games turned immediately to casting doubt on Goku's decision to have Gohan save the day, before it turned out Gohan could. Casting doubt on the protagonist's ability to win only to have the protagonist prevail anyway is standard writing practice.

There is a very big difference between these events. Yeah, the story leaves an element of uncertainty in order to keep tension. That uncertainty present in Goku vs Raditz/Freeza, and Gohan vs Cell are all inline with each other. The doubt that Goku could beat Cell was not like these, in that Goku was fighting against the doubt. He went with it, he was unphased by it.

The two pose different questions: the first scenario is the narrator asking the audience "Can the hero really succeed?!" and the expectation is ultimately that they will in some form, the second scenario asks both characters and audience "is it really about Goku winning?" as Goku shows no problem with the idea that he can't beat Cell and characters openly speculate what else their could be.

It's clearly a lead up to some result other than Goku defeating Cell, because that behavior doesn't line up with Goku ultimately winning. Had he won, it would beg the question "what were Goku's previous expectations?" as that clearly was not the result he was anticipating, was not the result that had him act so calm.

Gohan's unique feature was the only reason he was able to be relevant in fights at all. It was Toriyama playing catch up. He does the same thing when he introduces Goten and Trunks by having them become Super Saiyans at a terribly early age, and when he introduces the Androids by claiming their mechanical features make them more powerful than Frieza.

Because of the nature of the story's Power Creep, Toriyama makes excuses to get a new character he wants to be part of the cast up to everyone else's level.

They're not the same thing at all. Yes, Gohan's potential allows him to catch up, but it's also continually referred to and commented on as the story continues - well after he's cemented his position in the cast. The first time is an excuse, the multiple mentions are build up. Something used as a catch up power-up doesn't exclude it from being something more, much like Piccolo's fusion with God which was used to make him relevant while also being built up in advance and important to his own character.

If you're insinuating that Gohan surpassing Goku was plotted at the Ro Sa T, I agree with you. But that's not the same as suggesting the same at Raditz.

Good thing I'm not suggesting it was plotting at Raditz then! Not once did I ever say that.

The point of me bringing up that line, was to prove that their were things leading up to Gohan succeeding Goku before he actually did, planned or not.

JonnasN from Porto, Portugal Since: Jul, 2012
#23822: Aug 24th 2015 at 8:43:53 AM

Wow, just watched DB Super 7, and dang, I thought this series had the same writers as BOG's? Because so far the retelling is just copying plot points without understanding why they were effective in the first place. Ditto for Beerus entire personality, which went from a mix between Affably Evil and Orange-and-Blue Morality to a simple Evil Is Petty (there are movie villains with better characterisation than this). They even removed drunk Gohan/Saiyaman, which is hard to accept, considering they wasted an entire episode getting Pilaf on the ship.

Coupled with King Kai's awful voice, I'm finding this series harder to watch than GT. The first couple of episodes were decent, I'm hoping we get back to filler soon enough.

edited 24th Aug '15 8:45:24 AM by JonnasN

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#23823: Aug 24th 2015 at 8:50:20 AM

I'm more curious how Good buu + Evil buu = Super buu, but Super buu - Good buu = Kid buu.

Super Buu is basically Fat Buu reconfigured to minimize the effects of Dai Kaioshin's gentle nature and power drain.

"Kid" Buu, also known as Pure Buu, is Majin Buu's natural state. No absorptions, just the god-killing abomination purified.

Evil Buu is strange in general. Like, why is he stronger than Good Buu? Good Buu is Buu + Grand Supreme Kai while Evil Buu is just himself.

Because Dai Kaioshin's absorption weakened Buu rather than strengthening him. Fans debate to this day whether his battle power actually dropped or if it just meant he wasn't evil enough to use his power effectively, but the fight between Pure Buu and Mr. Buu makes the answer pretty clear, I think.

Okay, will the fanbase be pissed now that there are Black Star Super Dragonballs?

We've known about Super Dragon Balls since Dragon Ball Super's premise was announced: Goku and Vegeta travel to another universe searching for giant Super Dragon Balls. The Super Dragon Balls are the reason it's called Dragon Ball Super.

Getting upset about this now, seven episodes into Super, would be silly.

Which leaves out that Gohan still attacked Vegeta and became a threat Vegeta needed to shut down. The fact that he was out of it doesn't mean much because the same can be said for Goku when he saved everyone from Pilaf - he didn't intend to transform, and he wasn't controlling himself. Strikingly similar considering those are respectively their debut arcs, as well.

I agree with the parallel, but disagree with the context. Goku didn't save everyone from Pilaf. He escalated the situation to such an extent that everyone, including the protagonists, now needed to be saved from Goku.

The parallel is there because both situations were an arguable Godzilla Threshold for our crew, but in Goku's case, they had to actually deal with Godzilla when he showed up. The main distinction between Goku and Gohan's Oozaru incidences being that Gohan's rampage was less aimless as a consequence of Goku telepathically aiming him at Vegeta.

It was certainly a triumphant send-off for the Oozaru concept, but I dispute that Gohan deserves the credit for it.

I was never trying to say the battle was about someone. Just that it's not right to describe Gohan as Goku's weapon to both undersell Gohan and oversell Goku.

But that's effectively what he was. Both Gohan and Krillin only got by doing what Goku directed them to do in the battle. They were his proxies when he could no longer move. They delivered his Genki-Dama, Gohan became the Oozaru on Goku's urging.

The only person in the fight against Vegeta who managed to deal some damage to him without Goku telling him what to do was, of all people, Yajirobe.

Gohan and Krillin still had the difficult task of performing the feats Goku was telling them to perform, mind you. I'm not trying to undersell that the accomplishment of carrying out his plans effectively. Without them, the battle would unquestionably have been lost. But the fact remains that both the Genki-Dama and the Oozaru were Goku's attacks toward Vegeta carried out via Gohan and Krillin.

It's really about both of them. Without Gohan, Piccolo wouldn't have gone through that development. You're making it sound as though Piccolo went through all that development purely on his own, which contradicts the story. Piccolo decided to train Gohan for Gohan's potential, got close to Gohan for Gohan's innocence, realized it was a mistake because of Gohan's gentleness, and took the bullet because all of the above. I wasn't saying it was about Gohan alone, but he was definitely the cause of Piccolo's change.

It's not that Piccolo went through it all on his own. It's that the focus is on Piccolo's growth and development from Gohan. Gohan grows and develops very little from his training sessions with Piccolo. Despite all efforts on Piccolo's part, Gohan's still just a kid when they fight Nappa, freezing up and panicking in the midst of the battle.

Now, I'm not criticizing Gohan for being a terrified child in a warzone. The point is, a terrified child in a warzone is what he was at the beginning of all this. He gets physical training but undergoes minimal Character Development until Piccolo's death, whereupon the regret and guilt kickstart Gohan's development.

Gohan was the cause of Piccolo's change, but he was effectively an Innocence Lamp for the duration of Piccolo's redemption arc.

I'm not saying Gohan was the main character of Namek, or the Saiyan arc. But he has enough importance, focus and perspective in both of these arcs to be consistent with the later decision to make him the main character. But hell, even calling him Kuririn's sidekick doesn't diminish him because there's absolutely nothing that prevents a main character from being the sidekick to a more experienced secondary character.

All fair points, but emphasis: later decision. Gohan never outshone Krillin or Vegeta. By contrast, Goku himself was a sidekick to Bulma in the very first arc, fighting Bulma's foes and advancing Bulma's agenda. However, despite being Dumb Muscle, he avoided secondary character status because so much focus was placed on his experience, his interactions with their adversaries, and his victories in the combat zone.

The point is, Gohan was not the main character for Namek. Namek was Vegeta's story first, Krillin and Gohan's second, with Goku a distant third.

That's a pretty dismissive response. While it's true, it doesn't actually address what I said - do you have any reason whatsoever to imply that wasn't intended? I am certainly assuming said hints were planned in advance, however given how small a timeframe we're talking and how blatant the hints were (Gohan unimpressed by Goku's strength, a combination of Goku being unable to win but being blissfully confident, Goku's continued comments on Gohan) I feel it's quite unreasonable to dismiss them like that.

And even if it wasn't intentional, that still wouldn't change that Gohan's takeover had a build up that Goku's takeover did not. Like you said, it's good writing to make it seem that way.

Once again, I am not disputing that Gohan taking the torch was intended as early as the RoSaT. I am disputing that it was intended as early as Raditz.

That doesn't actually mean anything, because his backstory came after the fact. Ass Pull does not care for in-universe chronology. It came out of nowhere, and then sometime after that it was tied into his previously completely unexplored backstory. Is an Ass Pull.

You're right. Buu's history was only established after reverting to Pure Buu.

Yes, I am, because it's perfectly valid when you stop and remember that Boo's natural state in-universe has absolutely no bearing on the writing of things leading up to that point. Because Boo's natural state didn't exist in the story until its introduction, and that introduction had no build up at all. Mr Boo is pulled free, and... it turns out all along Boo had an unmentioned original form that is right around Goku's strength! That's what I mean. His "natural state" is an Ass Pull because it comes right out of nowhere, and from an out-of-universe view it is not his original form. The original Boo that Toriyama designed was Fat Boo. The original alter-ego was Pure Evil Boo. Pure Boo was introduced after this, so don't act give me that "deserves no dignity" type of response.

But it's not around Goku's strength. Pure Buu was still insurmountable even with Goku at Super Saiyan 3. Goku believed he might be able to destroy Pure Buu if he could charge his full power as Super Saiyan 3, but even that failed miserably due to the form's drawbacks.

They're not the same thing at all. Yes, Gohan's potential allows him to catch up, but it's also continually referred to and commented on as the story continues - well after he's cemented his position in the cast. The first time is an excuse, the multiple mentions are build up. Something used as a catch up power-up doesn't exclude it from being something more, much like Piccolo's fusion with God which was used to make him relevant while also being built up in advance and important to his own character.

It remained an excuse as late as the battle with Frieza, where the only contributions Gohan was able to make were when his Hidden Power activated. This was Gohan's thing: being worthless in combat except brief spurts of awesomeness when he was enraged.

Good thing I'm not suggesting it was plotting at Raditz then! Not once did I ever say that.

The point of me bringing up that line, was to prove that their were things leading up to Gohan succeeding Goku before he actually did, planned or not.

No, you didn't, so I think we're having different arguments.

I started this in response to claims that the entirety of Dragon Ball since Raditz was Gohan's Story, that the Saiyan Saga and Freiza Saga were build-up for Gohan taking the torch from Goku in the Cell Games, and that Goku taking back the torch in the Buu Saga is thus a betrayal of everything the story has ever been about.

Pure Boo was introduced after this, so don't act give me that "deserves no dignity" type of response.

You're right, that was rude and uncalled for. I apologize.

edited 24th Aug '15 9:02:29 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#23824: Aug 24th 2015 at 8:59:12 AM

[up][up]Yeah, I really hope it picks up, because it's feeling like a rehash of GT again.

Besides, this episode was more or less pointless, since not much of note really happened.

what do you mean I didn't win, I ate more wet t-shirts than anyone else
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#23825: Aug 24th 2015 at 9:15:29 AM

[up][up][up]Yeah, they skip some fun stuff, which is weird because then they fill the episodes with padding instead.


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