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PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#23601: Aug 21st 2015 at 8:29:36 PM

Golden Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Perfect Cell. Make it happen, Toriyama.

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#23602: Aug 21st 2015 at 8:32:54 PM

Anyway, I'd say it's more that Maximum the Hormone used a fictional anime character for a song about real-life dictators and human rights violations.

Which is. Charming, at least to an extent.

I mean, fiction should be capable of doing that at least.

It's one of the things fiction is for. Catharsis. Working through our issues.

"A story is a machine that kills fascists." -Kieron Gillen

edited 21st Aug '15 8:35:34 PM by unnoun

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#23603: Aug 21st 2015 at 8:35:12 PM

[up] Goes to show how impactful DB really is, anyway.

IndirectActiveTransport plays capoeira from Chicago (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Every rose has its thorn
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#23604: Aug 21st 2015 at 10:22:35 PM

Why can't more threads I pay attention to move at a third of this one's speed. Thankfully someone was blessed with the wisdom to code a label note into the fora.

So, people dismissing "American" sensitivity toward "race" and then demanding it be put out of mind annoy me. But for now, I will put that under the rug, click at your own discretion. note 

Touching on something else that I missed

the main reason i didn't like sasuke was because he basically felt like the blandest fusion of every shounen rival ever. it was only when we got the flashback to the uchiha massacre that i found it in me to care about him at all.
That would imply that it was possible to fuse every shonen rival and still have something resembling a coherent character. In a Dragon Ball sense it is literally possible, but not figuratively. Yamcha wasn't like Krillen, who wasn't like Tien, who wasn't like Piccolo Jr, who wasn't like Vegeta (incidentally, I think Vegeta's way passed his expiration date), I find it hard to believe Sasuke is somehow a composite of all of them. That would make him a woman phobic bandit who is a fan boy of great martial artists who took up martial arts to impress girls who is a sneaky somewhat coward out for revenge against bullies who wants to be a killer but doesn't have the heart for it and later realizes being a hero is kind of cool who has the memories of his evil father but finds love in his enemy's son who killed people for a living but mellowed out after having a son.

It's statements like that, that give me doubts when someone insists another series is similar to Dragon Ball. True, in Naruto's case we are discussing a series that actually has Word of God confirmation but I seriously doubt every shonen rival trait applies to Sasuke. I already typed up two posts explaining how Yu Yu Hakusho wasn't like Dragon Ball only to see two pages discussing how the two were alike without any points I made ever addressed. God forbid the Yu Yu Hakusho rivals also get put in that horrifying hypothetical fusion (he also grew up with the protagonists and the protagonist's first mission involved taking him down)

Buldogue's lawyer
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#23605: Aug 21st 2015 at 10:25:19 PM

Sasuke is a Vegeta who's successful, which makes him completely lose his appeal.

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#23606: Aug 21st 2015 at 10:30:12 PM

I don't think Sasuke ever struggles or shows any good qualities or any self doubt the entire series. He's just a completely obnoxious, whiny, miserable cunt and then he wins.

My various fanfics.
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#23607: Aug 21st 2015 at 10:31:35 PM

I must say I don't like Hiei much either, apart from his relationship with Mukuro, but he at least is better than Sasuke.

Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#23608: Aug 21st 2015 at 10:40:58 PM

I'm not sure I'd really consider any of them apart from Vegeta rivals. Maaaaybe Piccolo.

edited 21st Aug '15 10:41:39 PM by Arha

IndirectActiveTransport plays capoeira from Chicago (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Every rose has its thorn
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#23609: Aug 21st 2015 at 10:45:01 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong but Sasuke isn't a demon Sealed in a Person-Shaped Can is he? One of the trademarks of a Vegeta is having what would otherwise make a protagonist unique, to show those traits alone aren't what makes the protagonist special. (Vegeta has all the saiyan traits but still falls behind because he lacks the training and is kind of a nutcase blinded by his own pride and ego) I was under the impression Gaara was the Vegeta of Naruto. Tien or Kuwabara+Hiei seems like a better one for Sasuke, but again, I just played a couple video games so I could be wrong.

edited 21st Aug '15 11:08:44 PM by IndirectActiveTransport

Buldogue's lawyer
Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#23610: Aug 21st 2015 at 10:49:45 PM

No, The Vegeta is basically The Rival but with a few more specifics. What you said are just some of the aspects that make Vegeta more appealing than his copies.

Also, I'd say the Sharingan is enough to counteract Kurama in this case.

edited 21st Aug '15 10:50:36 PM by Zelenal

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#23611: Aug 21st 2015 at 10:54:32 PM

Like I said, the reason Sasuke fails compared to Vegeta is that he is successful. He's an arrogant, prickish rival who is rewarded for being so and ends up just as strong as the protagonist. Vegeta, by contrast, has as his moment of absolution the realization that he will never be better than Goku.

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#23612: Aug 21st 2015 at 10:59:09 PM

Hiei is at least kinda neat in the fact that he never actually stops being a monster. He's just a monster pointed in the other direction.

My various fanfics.
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#23613: Aug 21st 2015 at 11:00:24 PM

[up] Hiei was intended to be just an Arc Villain originally. His inexplicable popularity after that one arc got him promoted to the main cast, apparently.

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#23614: Aug 21st 2015 at 11:10:12 PM

Like I said, he never has that humanizing Vegeta or Piccolo element of "Hey, he really is a good guy now!" He just keeps on being evil, but it's to other evil people.

My various fanfics.
IndirectActiveTransport plays capoeira from Chicago (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Every rose has its thorn
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#23615: Aug 21st 2015 at 11:42:01 PM

Fine, I'm wrong about Naruto again. Maybe I should read it or something. There is one thing I am right about though.

Yamucha was the rival to find the Dragon Balls first and one of the few beings who could (sort of)match Goku in physical battle. He also had a shape shifting companion who was better than and had history with Oolong.

Krillen competed with Goku to get training from the turtle hermit and then competed with Goku during that training when they were both accepted, which resulted in Goku going a night without dinner when he outsmarted Goku and then fought Goku during a budokai.

Tien was able to learn the technique which took Krillen and Yamucha a year to learn and it's creator fifty years to create after simply seeing it, just like Goku. He was trained in a rival school of martial arts and had a shorter nose lacking companion who trained with him. Goku fought Tien in two Budokais.

Piccolo was born hating Goku, fought Goku during a budokai and then trained for years for the purpose of overtaking Goku and so he could rule the world.

Seriously, Dragon Ball is the inventor of the "Jump System". Even I, who am skeptical about how much it is really imitated, recognize the pattern. Protagonist fights rival, defeats rival, becomes friendlier with rival, gets newer less friendly rival, process repeats until mangaka moves to new project. The problem is, Vegeta overstayed his welcome. After Goku returned to life, the logical progression would have been for Majin Buu to become Goku's new rival. Vegeta finally admitted Kakarot was better than him, so he can keep training now without raging about it somehow isn't enough to surpass Kakarot and resorting to things like selling his soul to evil wizards. Majin Buu likes to fight, wanted to fight Goku again, likes to eat, is even more naive, even more ignorant of social norms, actually had the ability to surpass Goku as evidence by Super Buu, can do things Goku can never hope to duplicate and is the mascot of "The defender of the Earth, Mr. Satan", who and thus also closely tied to Goku's daughter in law.

There should have been secondary rival dynamics with Trunks\Goten and Uub\Pan. Then either a new rival takes Buu's place or Trunks\Goten\Pan\Uub start a rival chain all their own. Hell, it'd be interesting to see such a chain where all the rivalries start friendly or see an extended rivalry where the inferiority is more ambiguous but all the new Dragon Ball media is following TOEI's lead now and TOEI loves Vegeta.

"Should" is a strong word isn't it? I guess there are plenty of other ways to keep going with the precedent set by Battle Of Gods and the summary Super was given without resorting to Vegeta. I maintain Vegeta's next monumental moment should have been getting his chance to become god and not only failing to win before the time limit ran out but also failing to hold on to any godly energy before Goku reveals he's not only learned to call on said energy on his own, but to mix it with regular super saiyan, giving himself blue hair, sparks and a larger battle power.

At most, Vegeta should have raged at Kakarot later. Goku would be confused, thinking it was okay to upstage Vegeta after he admitted Kakarot was better. Vegeta bitterly\ashamedly admits he thought Super Saiyan God would be trick that won him the pony, but then finally accepts his "glory days" are over and have been since the Freeza saga. It wouldn't even take away any of Vegeta's moments in Revival of F when it comes to the Freeza fight and would actually be a chance to explore how far Vegeta's come. But Vegeta's passing is all in the realm of speculation and fan fiction for now.

Buldogue's lawyer
Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#23616: Aug 22nd 2015 at 12:08:56 AM

Yamcha was an antagonist, not a rival. He's never really been competitive with Goku, not really.

Krillin was someone Goku trained with. Not a rival, never real competition.

Tien was, again, an antagonist. No recurring tension.

Piccolo was an antagonist. Little recurring tension.

These characters are not rivals.

IndirectActiveTransport plays capoeira from Chicago (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Every rose has its thorn
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#23617: Aug 22nd 2015 at 12:27:49 AM

Racing for Dragon Balls was competition, teaming up to save Bulma wasn't so antagonistic. Seeing who would be trained by Roshi was also competition, as we seeing who would eat on a given night, as was fighting one another in a budokai(a fight Krillen almost won). That applies to all Budokais, really.

Vegata was also an antagonist at first. A key part of the jump system is that they become friends, often without knowing. Yamucha went antagonist-enemy mine but still competitor-friend. Krillen didn't start as Goku's friend either, showing open contempt for him, but they ended up getting along. Tien was an antagonist first, as he ripped people off and killed Nam, but he became a friend during their fight and was a rival by their second fight. Piccolo Jr was an antagonist but hand an Enemy Mine situation and became Goku's friend, without knowing it at first. He's the strongest case you can make for "not a rival" but did train with Goku over the course of those seven years for the Androids and didn't stop trying to surpass him until his time in the room of spirit and time proved insufficient.

Actually, Vegeta was the in the technically antagonist position longer than any of them. Antagonist and rival aren't mutually exclusive terms, just in the same way Antagonist is not synonymous with evil. (A Hero Antagonist might be a logical step for a future Dragon Ball "saga") Krillen wasn't evil, but he was definitely antagonistic to our protagonist when he first appeared.

edited 22nd Aug '15 12:29:27 AM by IndirectActiveTransport

Buldogue's lawyer
Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#23618: Aug 22nd 2015 at 12:53:28 AM

So Frieda was Goku's rival too then? And also Commander Red I guess!

Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#23619: Aug 22nd 2015 at 12:54:33 AM

Something I've noticed about SSJ2 Teen Gohan, his hair is just like a Triceratops' crown.

His hair is still short in the back, all the upward spikes are just literally his bangs.

IndirectActiveTransport plays capoeira from Chicago (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Every rose has its thorn
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#23620: Aug 22nd 2015 at 2:34:47 AM

Commander red didn't train for the purpose of beating him, wasn't on the ground searching in a similar manor, interact with him directly, last more than a single arc. Blue wold be a better candidate, if you want to use close but no examples.

Freeza's the closest thing Goku has to an arch enemy, being killed by him in two timelines. They spend too much time apart and doing unrelated things to be rivals though. Vegeta\Freeza would be a closer case.

Piccolo, while I admit probably doesn't count, is much closer than either counterpoints in that he and Goku coexisted for years trying to get better in the same field while one of them obviously had the other's defeat in mind. Then they met in formal competition, then they coexisted for many more years obviously still in opposition to one another. That is a rivalry, if not necessarily the best example for The Rival trope, given so much of Piccolo's stint was off panel before they teamed up and Piccolo stopped being evil. Goku wasn't running a company, Freeza wasn't working to surpass him since birth, Goku wasn't looking for Dragon Balls at the time Freeza was and Freeza wasn't training. There were precisely four months overlap of them doing the same thing and it hasn't happened again yet. Give Freeza more time and he might just do enough to qualify as an evil rival, but as a youtube user put it, we're more likely to see Platinum Cell and Diamond Buu before he comes back a second\third time.

Buldogue's lawyer
Cag Since: Sep, 2010
#23621: Aug 22nd 2015 at 4:25:48 AM

Raditz' 1500 does make sense. Notably, when he commented on Gohan's 1,307 he said it was stronger than Goku not himself. The fact that he could be killed by an attack of 1,330 doesn't make him weaker than that level especially when the Makankosappo is noted to have additional piercing strength.

Raditz was panicking even before he knew about the extra piercing power of the attack. His reaction to Gohan's power(and the damage he took from his attack) had nothing to do with any piercing power. The fact he chose to compare Gohan to Goku could be just as much because Gohan is Goku's son.

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#23622: Aug 22nd 2015 at 4:41:58 AM

Raditz took damage from the considerably weaker Kamehameha. It's not hard to believe that a powerlevel of 1303 was enough to get him to believe it could do serious damage to him.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#23623: Aug 22nd 2015 at 4:43:31 AM

Also, the fact that they could rise their battle power at will was enough to unnerve him on it's own.

Cag Since: Sep, 2010
#23624: Aug 22nd 2015 at 5:34:39 AM

[up][up]

What damage? He caught it and no selled the explosion.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#23625: Aug 22nd 2015 at 5:48:24 AM

His hand was burnt.

When he showed fear of Piccolo's attack it was also with Piccolo's ki still rising.

edit: Vegeta is the only one of Goku's potential rivals that Goku has ever shown an interest in surpassing. As much as people portray Goku as giving a shit, he has made it clear in the manga he does reciprocate the rivalry and wants to outdo Vegeta as well.

But when it comes to Yamcha, Kuririn, Tenshinhan, Piccolo etc he never cared for them outside of their immediate battles.

edited 22nd Aug '15 5:52:05 AM by Saiga


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