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Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#23001: Aug 16th 2015 at 1:12:35 AM

SENZU BEAN!

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MyssaRei Since: Feb, 2010
#23002: Aug 16th 2015 at 1:15:59 AM

Well now, people expecting Vegeta to do the goofy Bingo dance for Beerus will be disappointed. However we DO get something a bit different — Vegeta fishing out a giant octopus, blowing it up via Big Bang Attack... then grabbing one of its tentacles and then proceeding to hijack the takoyaki stand so he could cook the Takoyaki for Beerus himself. I'm impressed. Who knew Vegeta could actually cook? XD

edited 16th Aug '15 1:19:04 AM by MyssaRei

Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#23003: Aug 16th 2015 at 1:19:47 AM

Ditto. They could never top bingo so they did something completely different rather than reuse it. I approve.

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#23004: Aug 16th 2015 at 1:46:59 AM

@IANCE My only issue with that is the change is noticed upon the first battle with the Androids. That was where 17/18 killed everyone in the future timeline, here they don't and it's immediately concluded they're less evil.

Of course, another theory put forward is that the difference starts because Kuririn holds back. In the future, he charges forward and the Androids decide to kill everyone. In the present, he hesitates because he now has knowledge of the timeline where the Androids kill him, and the Androids leave. I quite like that idea as well, but my preferred answer is still Gero messing with them some more in the future timeline.

Why Goku vs Ginyus?

Because it abruptly brought the intriguing cat-and-mouse adventure of the Namek arc to the close, threw the Ginyu Force under the bus when they had just been set up as really imposing and entertaining, and required Goku to be immediately put out of commission again because it was too soon for him to get involved with Freeza. It doesn't even work for building up Goku's strength or gravity training as he is immediately sidelined and receives a far larger power up from his zenkai before fighting Freeza.

It bears too many similarities with Goku's arrival in the Saiyan arc (easily dispatch the guy(s) giving trouble to the supporting cast, then fight the main villain) without the emotional impact that made Goku vs Nappa so good. The only good part of the entire sequence is Captain Ginyu's own bit, which manages to be unique, but even that is mostly just set up to take Goku out of the action which really lowers my opinion of it.

Then it's followed up by the Freeza battle, which starts out really poorly as Freeza transforms for no reason and Piccolo gets a bullshit power up only to contribute very little but padding. Freeza doesn't even transform out of necessity here! Just does it for shits and giggles, and having four different forms is nothing more than a waste of time. This is made worse when it's revealed he can actually control his battle power in all his forms, making the need to even have transformations seem pretty unnecessary.

This time, Goku showing up actually improves things, and his fight with Freeza is decent despite also having too many similarities to the Saiyan arc (the two "big" moments are taking the Kaio-ken further than Goku can handle it, and the Genki Dama, both virtually the same as the Saiyan arc but slightly less effective). Then, once Goku turns Super Saiyan, it starts getting into fatigue with Freeza also powering up and stalling his defeat for multiple chapters. It did make a good point about Goku's priorities, but that was never really followed up on anyway.

The problem with Goku vs 100% Freeza was that there stopped being any personal stakes other than Goku's pride once Porunga transported everyone to Earth. As Bulma points out after the battle, with Porunga's abilities they can just wish Goku back. And unlike later arcs when the threats take place closer to home, Freeza has no way of preventing them from bringing back Goku because he's stuck on Namek. The outcome of the fight just didn't matter at all, and there was no tension. It's a shame, because Porunga couldn't do second revivals, then Freeza delaying Goku for any amount of time would actually have a point, and it would really show how messed up Goku's pride is.

edited 16th Aug '15 1:47:11 AM by Saiga

Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#23005: Aug 16th 2015 at 1:59:12 AM

Hmm... As much as I love Goku VS Freeza, you certainly make a lot of good points. If you had the chance to rewrite it, what would you do to make it better?

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Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#23006: Aug 16th 2015 at 2:04:49 AM

Cut Porunga's second revivals to give the fight tension, make Gohan the one killed by Freeza (so Kuririn isn't perma-dead). That's the biggest change I think needs to happen, the fight is pretty solid other than that. I'd also swap Goku's "Kaio-ken Kamehameha" scene with him trying to increase his Kaio-ken and simply failing to, both to make it different from his Saiyan arc Kaio-ken Kamehameha and because it seems like the best way to retire it.

There would be other changes I'd make for that fight, but moreso as a consequence to changes I'd make to the arc as a whole. I've mentioned before, but I've put a lot of thought into potential changes I'd make to the series and it's quite extensive. That doesn't mean I don't love the series, I really only think about these things for series I love enough to put the effort in.

Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#23008: Aug 16th 2015 at 3:59:24 AM

Except she didn't call Vegeta's cooking being the greatest thing ever because I'm everyone would love to see that. It'd be like the greatest hibachi grill ever.

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unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#23009: Aug 16th 2015 at 4:07:16 AM

But seriously, she totally called it.

edited 16th Aug '15 4:07:30 AM by unnoun

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#23010: Aug 16th 2015 at 4:14:04 AM

While the Ginyu Force is undeniably hilarious, they could very easily be cut out of the story with no changes whatsoever aside from Nail being weaker and Freeza being about 10x weaker.

@Saiga I feel like Goku turning Super Saiyan removing the stakes was kinda the point of that part of the fight: sit back and just enjoy Freeza's well-deserved beatdown.

edited 16th Aug '15 4:18:56 AM by PushoverMediaCritic

Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#23011: Aug 16th 2015 at 4:15:37 AM

Except she totally didn't. This isn't average, everyday Vegeta; this is Vegeta doing everything in his power to keep Beerus entertained so he won't destroy the Earth. This is the Vegeta that gave us Super Fun Time Bingo. For all we know, if he ever does cook at home (which I doubt because they have robuts), he could be perfectly normal.

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#23012: Aug 16th 2015 at 4:36:11 AM

[up][up] That might've been the case if it had just been Goku kicking around Freeza as he was. But the 100% power, and Namek's imminent explosion, were there purely to create tension.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#23013: Aug 16th 2015 at 5:05:49 AM

[up]Okay I'll give you Namek exploding but Freeza's 100% power was allowed by Goku specifically so that he could enjoy beating down Freeza even more than he was before because Freeza's beat-down would hurt Freeza more(emotionally) at his max. Freeza's 100% wasn't there to create tension: it was there so that sitting back and just enjoying Freeza's well-deserved beat-down would be all the more satisfying.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#23014: Aug 16th 2015 at 5:37:11 AM

I doubt it wasn't there to create tension when Namek exploding wouldn't be a problem if Goku could just clock Freeza and go home. And given how much Kaio freaks out over Goku allowing it, it's clearly set up as being potentially bad.

Reservoir A former adventurer... from Eastern US Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
A former adventurer...
#23015: Aug 16th 2015 at 5:51:29 AM

About the subject of an 18/Krillin-centric plot, I always saw them in combat as more of a battle couple, with 18 being the Lightning Bruiser and Krillin being the support. This would translate in life as to why she 'wears the pants in the family'. Not sure who they'd have to tackle in order to justify bringing 18's level of strength to the fight, though.

Actually, I think they'd be better served with little to no action at all. Maybe a scene where some asshat tries to mug 18, punching her in the face as he does so. Then, as he realizes his mistake, and she's about to send him to the afterlife, we get to see Krillin being the devoted, loving husband and deck the bastard himself. It'd be a nice way of showing that, while being a minor character, Krillin's still a hero. Hell, anyone remember how he headbutted Perfect Cell because he absorbed 18? That takes some serious balls, given how outclassed he was at that point.

edited 16th Aug '15 5:52:39 AM by Reservoir

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#23016: Aug 16th 2015 at 5:54:00 AM

I'm pretty sure 18 wears pants because flying with a skirt would give everyone a nice view of her undies, and she don't want that.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#23017: Aug 16th 2015 at 7:10:32 AM

[up][up][up]Yeah King Kai freaks out but Goku is who we're supposed to side with because: Goku knows exactly how strong 100% Freeza is because Freeza has been giving a very convenient running tally on how strong he is and Goku knows how to do simple math thanks to Roshi, and we, the audience, want to see Freeza get his ass whooped just as much as Goku does and Freeza being at full power when said ass whooping occurs just makes it all the sweeter.

edited 16th Aug '15 7:11:05 AM by PushoverMediaCritic

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#23018: Aug 16th 2015 at 7:49:03 AM

Just found an article titled: Reasons Dragonball Super could be worse than GT.

I admit I didn't even read the article, just skimmed down to see the comments.

-

Does anyone know how strong Yamcha was by series end? Last serious fight I remember is the Saibaman and well, that happened. To compare, he was barely a match for Tien in the same tournament when Kid Goku fought evenly with him - so Yamcha would be far below where Goku was during the King Piccolo arc.

How strong were the Saibamen?

But, Yamcha, Krillin, and Tien trained with Popo doing the same thing Goku did? After that, Yamcha isn't explicitly shown training so I guess he stayed around there.

edited 16th Aug '15 8:37:14 AM by Soble

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
Reservoir A former adventurer... from Eastern US Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
A former adventurer...
#23019: Aug 16th 2015 at 7:50:27 AM

[up][up][up]I see what you did there :P

[up][up]While that may the case, I do remember in the anime that Goku got thrashed for a little while once Frieza hit 100%, but he couldn't maintain that level of power and thus slipped below Goku's strength. If Goku, in SS1 form, was that much stronger than Frieza 100%, I doubt he'd have allowed himself to get slapped around like that.

My personal theory is, based off of how 'bulking up' works in later parts of DBZ, that Frieza's skinny form is actually his true 100% form, because he can sustain it. His bulked up "100%" is actually more like the Ascended Super Saiyan or Ultra Super Saiyan forms that Vegeta and Trunks used; they grant additional power, but are either unstable or hard to use. Frieza had likely learned how to use that additional power to boost his speed, negating the limited mobility of having a bulkier body, in contrast to how Ultra Super Saiyan Trunks just couldn't move worth a damn.

EDIT: [up]Damn ninja :P

edited 16th Aug '15 7:50:55 AM by Reservoir

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#23020: Aug 16th 2015 at 8:13:35 AM

That's only in the Anime, the manga has Frieza still hopelessly outclasssed and mostly everyone here takes the manga's word over all.

About the latter part of the Frieza saga; I'll admit, the unique parts of it did start to falter after the Ginyu's showed up, but at that point there wasn't much to deal with. The Ginyu's were dead and the only threat left was Frieza himself. Now in terms of transformations, yea I'd say it was kind of pointless to give him two more transformations that didn't really amount to much or even entertain the idea that Piccolo could beat him.

edited 16th Aug '15 8:15:38 AM by BlackYakuzu94

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#23021: Aug 16th 2015 at 8:24:02 AM

I would have been okay with the third form if Frieza actually had to transform into it to beat Piccolo but it didn't seem like he did. Just like with his final form he did it just to show him how screwed he was. You shouldn't do that twice a row. Actually, you could probably he said he did that will all his transformations.

Also, his third form was the most interesting looking but the one he was in for the least amount of time, that also bothers me.

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#23022: Aug 16th 2015 at 8:31:11 AM

We know exactly the kind of difference between Goku and Freeza.

SSJ Goku had a powerlevel of 150.000.000. 100% Freeza had a powerlevel of 120.000.000. Goku is 25% stronger. Freeza never stood a chance against Goku after Goku transformed.

[up]It couldn't be around too long, lest the guy who designed the Xenomorphs sue.

edited 16th Aug '15 8:31:49 AM by IAmNotCreativeEnough

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#23023: Aug 16th 2015 at 8:36:53 AM

A 30 million difference is completely outmatch huh?

I would think that if the difference wasn't too much, a weaker fighter could still kind of do well, but I guess not.

Well, we've already said that Frieza is the reason power levels got so ridiculous anyway. Toriyama should have never had him change so much to be honest.

One Strip! One Strip!
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#23024: Aug 16th 2015 at 8:38:47 AM

A 25% difference sounds pretty significant to me Rob.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#23025: Aug 16th 2015 at 8:40:02 AM

You know, people complain that every time Freeza transformed he didn't actually need to and probably could've won in whatever form he was in. What these people aren't realizing is that the fact that Freeza does this repeatedly makes this a consistent character trait: Freeza doesn't transform in response to being surpassed, he transforms whenever someone can put up a fight! He likes to have an overwhelming advantage in all of his fights and REALLY doesn't like to be challenged and, whenever he is, he just powers up in response until he's inarguably on top.


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