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LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#22926: Aug 15th 2015 at 5:44:53 PM

I'm pretty sure it was stated at one point they had wiped out most of the population.

Edit: Damn pagetopper.

edited 15th Aug '15 5:45:17 PM by LSBK

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#22927: Aug 15th 2015 at 5:47:35 PM

Destorying the entire population of a planet is extremely difficult even if you're making it the sole focus of your efforts. 17 and 18 weren't even doing that; they just blew up cities for lulz and then moved on.

They were more like Sin than a true genocide threat. They roam the planet wrecking shit in their wake, and as long as you stay out of their path, you're fine. They lacked the motive to truly scorch the Earth and were content to just hunt when they were bored.

edited 15th Aug '15 5:48:50 PM by TobiasDrake

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TheAirman Brightness from The vicinity of an area adjacent to a location Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Historians will say we were good friends.
Brightness
#22928: Aug 15th 2015 at 5:47:42 PM

Future Trunks only has Future Gohan to work with, who not only didn't get all the awesome training from Goku and Piccolo that Present Gohan got, but was also busy getting his ass beat and then killed.

Present Trunks not only has Vegeta to teach him how to fight and access to a gravity chamber for good old fashioned grinding, he also Goten, who is roughly his equal, to go all out against and zenkai the fuck out of each other every day. To the point that they go Super Saiyan at age 7.

[up]Only hard if you don't just blow up the planet.

edited 15th Aug '15 5:59:17 PM by TheAirman

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PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#22929: Aug 15th 2015 at 6:52:55 PM

Initial Future Trunks < Initial Present Trunks < HTC Present Trunks < HTC 1 Future Trunks < HTC 2 Future Trunks

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#22930: Aug 15th 2015 at 7:31:44 PM

So what was the point of Yamu's existence? I don't see anything he did that couldn't be done by Spopovich alone. He didn't even get a fight, in the tournament or otherwise.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#22931: Aug 15th 2015 at 7:32:50 PM

Indeed, there is a manga version. It might be difficult to find unless you know some sort of shady Saigarious character with links to such things.

I had the complete opposite problem with Naruto. I felt it was taking itself way too seriously, given the phenomenal goofiness and stupidity of the plot, and was trying way too hard to be way deeper than it actually is.

Well, it has that problem, but it also sometimes includes gags at the worst of times (like sexy jutsu vs Kaguya - it worked only because the plot had already gone to shit). That was really directly more at One Piece though which ruins the atmosphere of a lot of serious moments due to Oda's art and overuse of gags.

I haven't seen that special, but from the sounds of it, Abo and Kado should have been whipped harder than Super Saiyan Goku vs. Full Power Frieza.

Manga version, they were. Goten and Trunks give them a single hit and send them flying, then do a follow up hit which sends them to the ground. At that point, they decide to fuse and become stronger than the base kids, but Goten/Trunks fuse and effortlessly beat Aka up as Gotenks.

As for Dragon Ball's genre - the term used by Shonen Jump is "battle manga" so yeah Fighting Series fits.

It probably wouldn't happen, because Saiyans, but based off of what DBM gave us, would anybody like to see the gang visit a universe where the Humans are the most powerful fighters? Like, not just the main guys, but humanity as a whole.

Wouldn't that just make Universe 7's human fighters even more irrelevant? They're not only outclassed in their universe, but it turns out that as far as humans go they aren't even that good compared to other universes. I can understand people wanting stronger humans, but what's the point of introducing a bunch of new characters who upstage the existing humans?

I don't want them to just wander into Universe 6 and be like, oh, welcome to Universe 6, the average battle power for civilians is 7 trillion here so you can start over fresh at the bottom of the ladder again!

I also don't want that. It was already done in the form of Raditz' arrival, and expanded from Earth to space seemed like a logical next step so I was always pleased with that. At this point though, the main cast have seen so much more that it feels weird to try and make them start from the bottom again. And alternate universes doesn't feel like as much of a logical jump, you'd think the heavenly realms would be more important. Really, "alternate" seems like it should just be... alternate, not stronger or weaker.

I'm still confused as to how Present Trunks is supposedly stronger than Future Trunks. Surely fending for yourself in a blasted-out wasteland is better training than simply having a good sparring partner?

It obviously isn't - just look at Future Trunks' own developments. Two years of training in the present made him many times stronger. One of those years was with a sparring partner, the other was mastering the Super Saiyan form.

Present Trunks has had both - he's been sparring with Goten for a long time, and has all the features of a Mastered Super Saiyan from using the form so much. Furthermore, sparring as Super Saiyans was noted in one of the guidebook's as the main reason behind Goku's huge increase in power from just one year of training.

I'm not so sure about present Trunks being stronger than future Trunks - I think they're so close to the same level there's nothing to really suggest one is stronger than the other. They both just fall into the same category of "stronger than 18/Piccolo, weaker than Gohan/Vegeta" to me.

My idea is simply give the villain a posse of lesser henchmen a la One Piece.

What's the point? Any appropriate opponent for the humans would be fodder for even Piccolo, let alone the Saiyans. So their battles would have absolutely no stakes, nor any importance to the plot. It'd just be padding that contributes nothing to the overall story.

[up] Toriyama likes to design his characters in pairs. Yamu was the small guy to Spopovitch's big guy. Also, writing by the seat of his pants, Toriyama wouldn't have known how much importance either would have.

[up][up] Given that half of Goku's post-RoSaT outclassed the others, and Goten had spar evenly with the stronger Gohan, I find it unlikely that Trunks would be stronger after his first RoSaT trip. Goten and Trunks are most likely stronger than half of Cell Games Goku's power.

edited 15th Aug '15 7:40:02 PM by Saiga

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#22932: Aug 15th 2015 at 7:43:04 PM

[up] And I guess it would be hard for Spopovitch to both restrain the victim and operate the drainy thingy.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#22933: Aug 15th 2015 at 7:50:13 PM

Of course, he wasn't actually needed for the restraining, since Kaioshin was doing a much better job of it.tongue

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
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#22934: Aug 15th 2015 at 8:00:52 PM

[up][up][up]Goten was NOT sparring evenly with Gohan, he surprised him with his power, but Gohan was clearly stronger by miles. Present Trunks is also nowhere near Piccolo in terms of power, even as a Super Saiyan, something that is shown very clearly when the kids defused in Buu.

If Piccolo/#18/the Saiyans/Mr. Buu is busy fighting something as strong as they are than the human's can very well have their own battles to fight. Not to mention that interfering in someone else's 1v1 is extremely poor etiquette in Shounen, and Dragon Ball practically made that rule.

The point of having a theoretical Universe with Humans on top would be for the Humans we have to learn their secrets and train under them and become relevant again.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#22935: Aug 15th 2015 at 8:35:53 PM

Goten was NOT sparring evenly with Gohan, he surprised him with his power, but Gohan was clearly stronger by miles.

At what point is it made clear that Gohan is stronger by miles? The entire time they're training he only impresses Goten by (narrowly) dodging a rock. And how long is his surprise supposed to last? They spar evenly, to the point where Gohan is pushed back into the air. What, he maintained a level of surprise all the way through that? No. He built up a sweat while sparring with Goten, and showed no advantage while they traded blows.

Whereas there is not a single scene that puts Gohan "miles" above Goten. Not one.

Present Trunks is also nowhere near Piccolo in terms of power, even as a Super Saiyan, something that is shown very clearly when the kids defused in Buu.

Trunks wasn't even a Super Saiyan when he defused inside Boo. Furthermore, being the most dominant absorbee doesn't mean you're the most powerful - not only was this stated absolutely nowhere, but it's also shown to be untrue with Dai Kaioshin having more influence than the stronger South Kaioshin. Even if it were true in that case, Goten and Trunks have a significant influence on Boo - compare "Goten, Trunks and Piccolo-absorbed" Boo with pure "Piccolo-absorbed" Boo. He might get the cape from Picclo, but he gets the fingers, longer tenctacle, and facial features from the kids. The presence of the kids also prevents more of Piccolo's clothes coming out, because Piccolo-absorbed Boo has the complete outfit.

Meanwhile, there are several pieces of evidence that point to Goten and Trunks being stronger than Piccolo. With Goku missing, Vegeta dead, and Gohan presumed dead, Piccolo declares Goten and Trunks to be the last hope against Majin Boo. Not himself. And he knows nothing of fusion at this stage.

Then, when they power up later, Piccolo is visibly freaked out at their full power, but Goku is merely impressed (because his Super Saiyan is stronger). You can say he's just surprised by their power for their age, but that makes less sense when he's already seen that they're very strong for their age.

The fact that they generally shown as being comparable to the adult Saiyans (and guidebooks back this up) while Piccolo is noticeably inferior to Super Saiyan Goku is telling enough.

There are plenty of straightforward signs that Goten and Trunks are stronger, whereas the only thing in Piccolo's "favour" requires one to make two big assumptions (Boo's currently absorbee is his strongest, and Goten and Trunks' Super Saiyan power is counted in that) while ignoring all the other details of that scene. There's really nothing concrete in Piccolo's favour, and I feel like people just lowball Goten and Trunks out of dislike for their shitty behaviour or some notion of how strong they "should" be.

While the kids are indeed shitheads, that wouldn't influence Toriyama's choice at all. Neither would what kids "should" be - just look at kid Goku or Gohan compared to their contemporaries. Trunks is only 1 year off the age Gohan was when he beat Cell, even.

If Piccolo/#18/the Saiyans/Mr. Buu is busy fighting something as strong as they are than the human's can very well have their own battles to fight. Not to mention that interfering in someone else's 1v1 is extremely poor etiquette in Shounen, and Dragon Ball practically made that rule

Even if they're too busy to interfere, or don't want to interfere, that still doesn't leave any actual stakes for the battles. If the humans lose, all that is hurt is their egos and maybe some damage that just gets wished back later. And I don't think some weaklings' egos is high enough stakes to justify slowing down the story.

It's something that could work, infrequently and in small doses, but making it a trend would just wear thing extremely fast.

The point of having a theoretical Universe with Humans on top would be for the Humans we have to learn their secrets and train under them and become relevant again

Still makes them pretty sad for needing the other, better humans help. But that scenario doesn't sound much better to me anyway.

edited 15th Aug '15 8:39:06 PM by Saiga

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#22936: Aug 15th 2015 at 8:35:58 PM

Or obtain the power to pierce the heavens.

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#22937: Aug 15th 2015 at 8:36:22 PM

And I still say the answer to that is to simply give other characters their own side stories. Krillen fights a super crime organization headed by a super crime family headed by a super crime patriarch. Yamcha fights and evil diva during half time. Tien and Choazu get haunted by ghosts, Piccolo has a bug problem, the Androids have to stop a man eating plant from snacking on the park goers, Majin Buu snacks on sea monsters, the Saiyamen encounter a hostile alien scout, Gotenks breaks an alien attack drone. We get more insight into their routines, their characters, see them develop, have some fun fights, maybe a little world building is done in the process in between the Goku\Vegeta plots.

Oh, and new action figures, can't forget about the importance of new subjects to make dolls of.

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HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#22938: Aug 15th 2015 at 8:49:13 PM

I guess I think it's weird that two newbie Saiyans have already surpassed a fully-realized Namekian. As if we needed any more proof they're a Superior Species.

Again, henchmen would fix this. Yeah it may be "padding" but I think One Piece does it well. Everyone loves Enies Lobby after all.

edited 15th Aug '15 8:52:06 PM by HamburgerTime

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#22939: Aug 15th 2015 at 8:55:59 PM

Or we could just accept that not everyone needs to fight anymore.

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#22940: Aug 15th 2015 at 8:57:36 PM

Though even pre-Z Goku got all the important fights. Recall when the supporting cast made tracks to Red Ribbon HQ, only to find that Goku had already won...

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#22941: Aug 15th 2015 at 8:58:30 PM

[up][up]That sounds much better to me. It's not like these people wanted to be the world's protectors or anything like that. Sure, they hate feeling powerless, but so does everyone.

edited 15th Aug '15 8:58:46 PM by LSBK

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#22942: Aug 15th 2015 at 9:13:54 PM

[up][up][up][up] Enies Lobby also had a far smaller cast to balance and still had some problems.

And Oda hasn't shown the ability to balance it that well since then.

So no, "copy Enies Lobby" is probably not the solution here.

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#22943: Aug 15th 2015 at 9:16:57 PM

[up] To be clear, I'm not asking for Yamcha or Chaozu to get their own henchman. Piccolo, Krillin, 18, and maybe Tien on a good day (but probably not) is what I'd like.

edited 15th Aug '15 9:20:49 PM by HamburgerTime

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#22944: Aug 15th 2015 at 9:18:04 PM

They don't have to be the world's protectors, at least not in the major saga role sense. They can just come across issues that can be solved by what power they do have and solve them.

We already have scenes of Krillen's police work, so give him an extended one that makes him sweat a little. The fake planet namek or other world tournament filler were harmless enough, something along those lines would make TOEI's drag-on style of plotting so much more enjoyable, especially if they were better thought out, which would be easy with the benefit of putting them in from the beginning that smashing stuff in because the manga hasn't came out with anything new.

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#22945: Aug 15th 2015 at 9:25:44 PM

@Saiga Goten only pushed Gohan back when Goten was Super Saiyan 1 and Gohan wasn't. Piccolo is impressed that they are so powerful for their age, not because they are stronger than him. Piccolo called Goten and Trunks the last hope not because they are stronger than him, but because they have the potential to be stronger than him. Regardless of any of these points however, why would Buuccolo exist if not to be irrefutable, 100% proof, signed by Toriyama himself, that Piccolo is stronger than Goten and Trunks? You're wrong.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#22946: Aug 15th 2015 at 9:25:47 PM

[up][up][up] And you still have the problem of making it hard to justify those fights mattering at all. At least Enies Lobby was able to do that with the Straw Hats not being as far from each other, and only had to resort to Idiot Plot for one fight to make it work (Kalifa vs Nami, with both Sanji and Kalifa being idiots to enable that).

I frankly don't think it's worth the effort, especially the further you go down the totem pole. With the power inflation it'd be hard to see Gohan get a decent, sensible fight, let alone Kuririn. Ideally, what I'd like is for Gohan, Goten, Trunks, Boo, 18 and Piccolo to have something and that's already pretty bloated. Along with mandatory Goku and Vegeta, it would be a manageable size but I don't have faith in either Toei or Toriyama to pull it off.

Goten only pushed Gohan back when Goten was Super Saiyan 1 and Gohan wasn't.

Uh, no, that happened when both were Super Saiyans. In fact, Super Saiyan Goten never fought base Gohan. You are factually wrong (unlike your usage of "wrong").

Piccolo is impressed that they are so powerful for their age, not because they are stronger than him.

You have no evidence of this. Funny how I already addressed this claim and you just straight up ignored that.[lol]

Piccolo called Goten and Trunks the last hope not because they are stronger than him, but because they have the potential to be stronger than him.

Once more, with no evidence.

Regardless of any of these points however, why would Buuccolo exist if not to be irrefutable, 100% proof, signed by Toriyama himself, that Piccolo is stronger than Goten and Trunks?

You're actually going to call a subjective interpretation of Boo's appearance to be proof? That is asinine. Piccolo-Boo was probably included to show that he was weaker than Gohan, thus necessitating that Gohan be absorbed for Boo to win, which is both what is said ("This way, Gohan will be able to beat you even on his own") and what happens (Boo resorts to absorbing Gohan). That makes a lot more sense than taking a moment to comment on Goten and Trunks vs Piccolo in the most vague and non-explicit way possible.

And I'll repeat your own question back at you. Why would Toriyama include two versions of Piccolo-absorbed Boo, with significant physical differences between Goten/Trunks being absorbed or not?

You're wrong.

The truth is, the only explicit answer for "X vs Y" is a direct statement "X is stronger than Y / Y is stronger than X". To call someone 'wrong' in their interpretation so authoritatively is just silly, and frankly meaningless. You don't prove anything by just declaring someone is wrong.

Notice how I, despite my belief, I have only called you wrong on the facts, not your conclusion. I'd ask you to extend the same courtesy.

edited 15th Aug '15 9:36:40 PM by Saiga

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#22947: Aug 15th 2015 at 9:29:30 PM

[up] I think I'd be more okay with it if the characters that were still relevant weren't all the same race. Whether by accident or design, this leaves us with some... interesting implications.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
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#22948: Aug 15th 2015 at 9:29:52 PM

[up][up]And you still have the problem of assuming that these fights need to matter. Why can't they just be mind-less fanservice showing the characters being awesome?

edited 15th Aug '15 9:30:16 PM by PushoverMediaCritic

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#22949: Aug 15th 2015 at 9:31:45 PM

Like that filler of Yamcha, Tien, and Chiaotzu beating the Ginyu Force. Sure, it makes no sense looking back on it, but it's still one of my favorite episodes.

edited 15th Aug '15 9:46:57 PM by LSBK

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#22950: Aug 15th 2015 at 9:32:48 PM

[up] If those three could beat the Ginyus King Kai must really have been skimping on Goku's training...

edited 15th Aug '15 9:33:01 PM by HamburgerTime


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