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SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#22826: Aug 14th 2015 at 4:32:36 PM

Me and Zel had a discussion about this, and there's a perfectly logical explanation for why no one learned the Kaioken besides Goku.

It's fucking impossible.

Think about it. Goku, ever since he saw Roshi do the Kamehameha wave, has shown the innate ability to master any technique he sees by watching it done once. It still takes him nearly a YEAR to master Kaoiken and the Genki Dama. If the Mozart of Martial Arts takes forever to do it, Baldy Mc Three Eyes ain't got a prayer.

My various fanfics.
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#22827: Aug 14th 2015 at 4:33:49 PM

Only thing I don't like about Power Levels is how they've led to stupid and illogical debates.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#22828: Aug 14th 2015 at 4:34:37 PM

....

[up][up]That's a fair enough assessment.

Then again, most of the characters learned the same techniques Goku did. Just because it took him a year to learn it (and recall, he never learned to go past three without fucking up his own body something fierce), doesn't mean the others couldn't do it at all, just that it would take them longer for once.

That being said, you are probably right.

[up]That's what we all hate about Power Levels.

I'd also argue Toriyama did an awful job of subverting them. He may not give numbers anymore, but the fact that we constantly lament how other characters don't get to do anything because they Can't Catch Up means that Power Levels are still very important. There are the only things that have meaning in a fight anymore.

edited 14th Aug '15 4:36:10 PM by HandsomeRob

One Strip! One Strip!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#22829: Aug 14th 2015 at 4:36:36 PM

[up][up][up]Tenshinhan learned the Kamehameha from one time seeing it also, in a scene which was specifically designed to make him into Goku's Evil Counterpart for the tournament.

[up][up][up][up]I already explained how being at 50% power and being at 50% energy are drastically different circumstances.

[up][up]Don't worry, I try to stay polite in Power Level debates when people aren't just mindlessly writing them off as bullshit.

[up]Power Levels were always one of the only things that mattered when it came to fights; when has a weaker character ever beaten a significantly stronger character in a one-on-one? Never?

edited 14th Aug '15 4:40:36 PM by PushoverMediaCritic

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#22830: Aug 14th 2015 at 4:37:41 PM

[up][up]As far as I remember it was eventually times 10 with no problem.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#22831: Aug 14th 2015 at 4:39:03 PM

Ki level is tied directly to your strength, this has been explicitly stated many times, so your claim is quite frankly, bullshit.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#22832: Aug 14th 2015 at 4:39:04 PM

And again, half-power Gohan needed a distraction to defeat Cell.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#22833: Aug 14th 2015 at 4:39:12 PM

[up][up][up]

Oh right. What I meant was that he initially couldn't go past three without fucking up his body.

You could say that he learned Kaiouken, but didn't fully master it until he training on the way to Namek.

edited 14th Aug '15 4:39:35 PM by HandsomeRob

One Strip! One Strip!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#22834: Aug 14th 2015 at 4:45:20 PM

[up][up][up]It's more like in Xenoverse: Gohan was low on Ki. Ki being low doesn't start affecting your Power Level until you use a TON of it; other-wise characters would grow weaker with every Ki Blast fired and attacks as strong as your own Power Level, much less surpassing it as we have seen them do, would drain all your life force. Just because you're tired doesn't mean you're weaker.

edited 14th Aug '15 4:47:06 PM by PushoverMediaCritic

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#22835: Aug 14th 2015 at 4:51:15 PM

Gohan and Cell were both firing an All Or Nothing Full Power Kamehameha, with all of their power poured into it. Even under your logic, Gohan was limited to half of the power that Kamehameha could have possibly had.

And the fact is, Gohan was at half energy... which means he was at Half Power.

For them, their ki is everything. When their ki starts to drop, their attacks are weaker and they are hurt more easily. When they are hurt, their ki drops. Ki is their Health, their Strength stat, their Endurance stat, their Speed stat - ki is everything. If their ki is halved, then their every ability is halved because of it.

By the by, on the Kaioken...

I think it has less to do with talent and more to do with how strong your body is. Goku's Saiyan Body can endure it. It's probable a human body just can't, and it's useless for other Saiyans who know about the Super Saiyan transformation and can do it, which is the entire rest of the saiyan cast.

edited 14th Aug '15 4:54:20 PM by IAmNotCreativeEnough

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#22836: Aug 14th 2015 at 5:00:48 PM

[up]No, that's... not at all how that works. Ki is the body's natural kinetic energy made manifest into auras and beams. If someone is low on Ki, that's no different from them being tired from exercise. Just like how, if you just sparred with someone and are tired from the exercise, you don't get actively weaker, you just get tired.

edited 14th Aug '15 5:02:24 PM by PushoverMediaCritic

Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#22837: Aug 14th 2015 at 5:02:21 PM

You are so completely wrong it's not even funny.

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#22838: Aug 14th 2015 at 5:04:16 PM

Here. Even Wikipedia is less wrong than you are.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#22839: Aug 14th 2015 at 5:09:20 PM

Ki and Spirit energy in Dragon Ball are two VERY different and distinct things, though connected. Spirit energy is your life force and Ki is more like the energy you use for physical labor. Getting hurt can make you tired and being tired can make you sluggish and lower your reaction time, but in Dragon Ball, Ki and Spirit energy are NOT the same thing.

edited 14th Aug '15 5:11:55 PM by PushoverMediaCritic

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#22840: Aug 14th 2015 at 5:11:39 PM

Hey, if you're Obito, you at least have intangibility and teleportation to literally everywhere on the planet.

Also, how the fuck did you all write all this in the time it took me to write that?

edited 14th Aug '15 5:14:01 PM by Ssj3Gojira

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#22841: Aug 14th 2015 at 5:16:58 PM

[up]You're incredibly drunk.

[up][up]You're thinking of Naruto, because in Dragon Ball, Ki is Ki is Ki. It's Ki. Spiritual, physical, mental - Ki is Ki is Ki.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#22842: Aug 14th 2015 at 5:18:42 PM

So Ki Blades when? tongue

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#22843: Aug 14th 2015 at 5:20:32 PM

[up][up][up]

Well, he is the coolest guy......According to Naruto, which just adds to the reasons why it's bullshit mind you.

No, I don't care what powers he has. Fuck Obito.

Yeah, that thing about human bodies not being able to take it makes sense.....though it's not confirmed, but since we know that they will never learn, nor would it matter if they did, I'll accept that.

[up] We already have those.

edited 14th Aug '15 5:21:36 PM by HandsomeRob

One Strip! One Strip!
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#22844: Aug 14th 2015 at 5:20:32 PM

The Genki Dama is Genki is Ki.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#22845: Aug 14th 2015 at 5:23:12 PM

I actually do think genki and ki were supposed to be different things. Or am I dismembering that?

Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#22846: Aug 14th 2015 at 5:24:29 PM

Well, if you take too much genki then the thing dies and if you run out of ki then you die so...

No, I'm pretty sure they aren't.

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#22847: Aug 14th 2015 at 5:29:40 PM

It's gen-flavored ki.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#22848: Aug 14th 2015 at 5:31:41 PM

It's an Urobuchi-flavored tree?

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#22849: Aug 14th 2015 at 5:32:47 PM

Hey, the bad guy in "World's Strongest".

How did he make his brain that big??

My various fanfics.
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#22850: Aug 14th 2015 at 5:35:33 PM

>Xenoverse :V

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.

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