TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Dragon Ball

Go To

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#22776: Aug 14th 2015 at 9:25:36 AM

[up]

This man speaks the truth.tongue

One Strip! One Strip!
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#22777: Aug 14th 2015 at 10:05:45 AM

Don't forget pointless power level debates.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
IndirectActiveTransport plays capoeira from Chicago (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Every rose has its thorn
plays capoeira
#22778: Aug 14th 2015 at 10:08:06 AM

Yo, Son Goku And His Friends Return showed that Goten and Trunks had become as strong as Freeza, in base. Goku was strong enough to defeat two beings as strong as Freeza fused with just super saiyan...then again they had just been through a battle with Goten and Trunks, but the point stands. The entire point of that special was what if people of Freeza's caliber invaded Earth when it had Buu Saga level fighters on it, the message was "the kids will handle it, and wouldn't even need super saiyan". Everyone else got involved not because Abocado actually had a chance of defeating them, but because he was starting to cause collateral damage.

Buldogue's lawyer
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#22779: Aug 14th 2015 at 10:21:22 AM

Then Frieza actually shows up and the kids are sidelined :V

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#22780: Aug 14th 2015 at 11:18:05 AM

But Krillin, Tienshinhan, Jaco and goddamn Kamesenin show up.

Makes... sense?

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#22781: Aug 14th 2015 at 12:59:12 PM

No, not really. But *shrug* Fanservice

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#22782: Aug 14th 2015 at 2:06:40 PM

Abo and Cado were IIRC as strong as first form Frieza, though.

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#22783: Aug 14th 2015 at 2:14:52 PM

Which is, really, still absurdly freaking strong.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#22784: Aug 14th 2015 at 2:22:25 PM

Goku never even met first form Freeza.

Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#22785: Aug 14th 2015 at 2:24:43 PM

No but he did sense him several times. Also, he saw him when he read Krillin's mind.

edited 14th Aug '15 2:25:04 PM by Zelenal

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#22786: Aug 14th 2015 at 2:32:20 PM

Goku knows how strong Freeza is in all of his forms because he felt all of them. He was 'awake' in the regeneration pod.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#22787: Aug 14th 2015 at 2:42:59 PM

That would mean the boys aren't even as strong as Piccolo...huh, interesting. Wonder how strong they are as Super Saiyans.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#22788: Aug 14th 2015 at 2:51:23 PM

25.000.000 or so?

Hm...

That would make Gotenks SSJ 3 around the vicinity of 400.000.000... Nah, that's far too small, considering they were stronger than Super Buu as SSJ 3 Gotenks.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#22789: Aug 14th 2015 at 2:57:37 PM

Do we know how much the Fusion Dance increases the power?

Fusion tends to be greater than the sum of its parts.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#22790: Aug 14th 2015 at 2:58:29 PM

No we do not.

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#22791: Aug 14th 2015 at 3:00:18 PM

So if Goten and Trunks are only around first form Freeza they are way weaker than even Namek Goku.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#22792: Aug 14th 2015 at 3:01:16 PM

To my knowledge, we know it's not as good as the Potara and that's it.

If the Fusion Dance is even as good as Namekian Fusion, they might get a free order of magnitude from it just 'cause. When Piccolo and Nail merged, even hitting 100,000 would have been a stretch, but they got to tack an extra 0 onto the end for 1,000,000 just from the Fusion alone.

If we do the same for the hypothesized powers IANCE proposes, SS 3 Gotenks becomes around 4,000,000,000 instead.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#22793: Aug 14th 2015 at 3:01:59 PM

Still, that's better than what Gohan was at their age, and they don't even need a rage boost to get to the higher levels.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#22794: Aug 14th 2015 at 3:03:51 PM

[up][up]I'm assuming that powers are added and then multiplied. A low multiplier, but even a x2 would be obscenely huge, since it means SSJ 3 goes from x400 to x800.

Using that, we'd get Gotenks at 800.000.000. A more likely number, but still a bit low, all things considered.

x3? That's 1.2 Billion, still too low.

(Keep in mind that the very weakest Goku could possibly be at as a SSJ 3 - weaker than Super Buu - is 1.2 billion, since he had a powerlevel of 3 million when he fought Freeza in Namek... and he's much, much stronger than that).

Maybe a flat x10? 4.000.000.000 seems like a high enough number to sell it.

And it also explains how Goku and Vegeta doing the Fusion Dance was enough to murderize Super Janemba even as Super Saiyan, since they'd be Goku + Vegeta x500, which is almost certainly superior to Goten + Trunks x 4000.

edited 14th Aug '15 3:09:46 PM by IAmNotCreativeEnough

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#22795: Aug 14th 2015 at 3:09:30 PM

Hmm, even 4 billion seems too low for Super Buu.

We don't know much about Goku's battle power other than that it's lower than Frieza's in Base. This means that as a Super Saiyan 3, Goku's battle power is somewhere between 1.2 billionHEY  and 48 billionHEY . Probably closer to the 48 billion than the 1.2 billion.

While he believed his full power would have been sufficient for Fat and Pure Buu, Goku openly acknowledges that even at Super Saiyan 3, he could not handle Super Buu. For Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks to carry the fight Goku himself did not think he could win, they would need to be closer to, or even beyond the 48 billion mark.

edited 14th Aug '15 3:10:54 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#22796: Aug 14th 2015 at 3:14:42 PM

On the other hand, if you just ignore the special, like I do, you can just increase Goten and Trunks' base powers so you don't need to boost Fusion so insanely.

Which also meshes with my theory that Super Saiyan has a minimum power floor and that's why nobody ever transformed until Goku broke into the millions.

If Goten and Trunks have a powerlevel of ~1.000.000 instead of ~500.000, the numbers start to become a lot more manageable. If the very lowest powerlevel you can have to transform is 3 million, that puts them at at least 3 million powerlevel, which means that they could be somewhere around ~24 B as SSJ 3 Gotenks.

If Goku doesn't break 60 million, then that makes Gotenks still be stronger than Goku. Say, with 50 Million in base he'd be at 20 Billion as SSJ 3. Still large.

I don't really think that Goku's base power was that close to Freeza's full power. I don't think we need to assume Goku's powerlevel was 119.999.999.

edited 14th Aug '15 3:18:17 PM by IAmNotCreativeEnough

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#22797: Aug 14th 2015 at 3:18:02 PM

Yeah, the kids being at 1/6 of Namek Goku and probably something like 1/200 of Buu Saga one would really require fusion to have some absolutely insane multiplier.

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#22798: Aug 14th 2015 at 3:19:33 PM

Plus, they'd also be weaker than Gohan was at their age, which is explicitly not the case. Keep in mind that this is after they train up so they can do SSJ 3 as Gotenks while in the Hyperbaric Tank Charger.

Remember that Gohan endured some pretty harsh training to prepare for the coming of the androids, from both Goku and Piccolo.

edited 14th Aug '15 3:20:06 PM by IAmNotCreativeEnough

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#22799: Aug 14th 2015 at 3:21:01 PM

Which isn't unexpected. The other two forms of Fusion do.

As previously noted, Namekian Fusion results in something FAR beyond the sum of its parts.

And then there's the Potara.

  • 400 Gokus < Super Buu
  • 100 Vegetas = 100 Gokus
  • 1 Gohan > Super Buu
  • 50 Vegitos > Super Buu + Gohan + Goten + Trunks + Piccolo

Frankly, I don't know why you guys are expecting the Fusion Dance to be reasonable.

edited 14th Aug '15 3:23:37 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#22800: Aug 14th 2015 at 3:25:28 PM

If you're going by the anime (and, in this case, I am all for that), 1 Vegetto > 1 Super Buu + Gohan + Goten + Trunks + Piccolo.

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!

Total posts: 130,800
Top