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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#22751: Aug 13th 2015 at 9:29:13 PM

Dude I agree with you about it not mattering how the form looks on women, though the thing about Toriyama being forgetful has been thrown into doubt.

I maintain that Super Saiyan 3 is ugly on everyone, regardless of gender. I'm 90% sure that's equality.

Plus, it's seriously flawed anyway, so why bother?

I do like your theory, except that Super may not even go past the Buu arc, and into the era that the final Arc of DBZ took place in, so there really is no reason to hold back on SSJ Pan, unless they plan to tackle the series after the official end, and fully retcon GT (which they could, since the existence of the God forms already brings it into question).

edited 13th Aug '15 9:30:53 PM by HandsomeRob

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Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#22752: Aug 13th 2015 at 9:38:28 PM

Wow, Goten VS Trunks is a really cool fight. The look on Videl's face as she realizes she's vastly outmatched by mere children is great.

Also, Christopher Sabat is so much better at doing Vegeta now that it's crazy. They almost sound completely different.

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BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#22753: Aug 13th 2015 at 9:48:23 PM

I feel like Chi-Chi was written as a Hate Sink.

Do any of you think that's accurate?

[up]Yeah, that was a good one.

edited 13th Aug '15 9:48:45 PM by BaconManiac5000

what do you mean I didn't win, I ate more wet t-shirts than anyone else
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#22754: Aug 13th 2015 at 9:54:09 PM

[up]Chi-Chi was clearly there to be foiled occasionally but I would never suspect her to be written with the intention for everyone to hate her. Especially when most of the reasons people have for hating her come directly from the anime.

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#22755: Aug 13th 2015 at 10:01:37 PM

Super Saiyan 3 being flawed doesn't really matter much in the video games.

And while it's a flawed transformation, it's still useful (It's the only way Gotenks stood a chance against Super Buu, and Goku probably could have killed Fat Buu if he didn't play around) and at the very least is symbolic of achieving a high internal power level. Goku may be better off in Super Saiyan 1, but the fact that he achieved 3 at all while Vegeta was stuck at 2 is a testament to the former's superior strength and better training.

But it is ugly as hell, yeah. Goku the Barbarian. tongue

edited 13th Aug '15 10:02:44 PM by Anomalocaris20

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PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#22756: Aug 13th 2015 at 10:07:03 PM

[up]I like the design of SS 3. Missing eyebrows and giant anime hair taken to it's Logical Extreme makes it stand out, unlike SS 2 where, with the exception of Kid Gohan, looks almost exactly the same as SS 1 on everyone, especially Vegeta who, aside from lightning in the aura, looks exactly the same.

LOLypop1224 ...what am I even DOING here? Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
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#22758: Aug 13th 2015 at 10:23:12 PM

[up] Although those characters look, like, 12. I wonder what it'd be like on an adult. Not that we'd ever see it.

I don't know whether Chi-Chi was supposed to be sympathetic or not. I think she was just a joke. Her character was just a joke about how Gohan's studies were more important than the fate of the world.

edited 13th Aug '15 10:23:50 PM by LOLypop1224

The *Legendary* Super Saiyan is motivated by a crying infant! He is a literal giant f***ing baby!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#22759: Aug 13th 2015 at 10:42:41 PM

Again, to be fair, what right does little Gohan have to be on the battlefield when his father is the strongest man on Earth and has saved the world multiple times?

BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#22760: Aug 13th 2015 at 11:28:02 PM

It's not like there's a law that someone can't save the world if there's someone better qualified for the task. :P

what do you mean I didn't win, I ate more wet t-shirts than anyone else
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#22761: Aug 14th 2015 at 3:22:23 AM

Chi Chi doesn't care about Goku getting hurt because for him, it's nothing new. Goku has gotten the shit kicked out of him a number of times, he's fine, he can take it. What she doesn't know is that Gohan is just as hardy, both mentally and physically, as his father is.

Also, the female SSJ 3 have huuuuuuge foreheads. I like it, though I do wonder how the hell they managed to find something to tie their hair that wasn't disintegrated by the transformation, considering Trunks' hair tie was destroyed by him going Ultra Super Saiyan.

edited 14th Aug '15 3:23:39 AM by IAmNotCreativeEnough

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#22762: Aug 14th 2015 at 6:48:24 AM

The thing about Pan becoming a Super Saiyan is that, ultimately, this is right:

The whole super saiyan concept has been watered down so much it wouldn't even mean anything in story anyway.

It's a bargain sale on Super Saiyans at this point. It would mean less for Pan to become a Super Saiyan than it meant for Goten and Trunks to do it, and wouldn't change any of her scenes.

But that's the problem. It means so much that she didn't become a Super Saiyan because it would mean so little for her to do so. The omission is what's meaningful because there is literally no reason for her not to be one. She was needlessly snubbed.

Again, my problem comes from that Goku couldn't move and was almost dead while Gohan was pretty much fine when he woke up. Even then, that wouldn't have bugged me that much if she hadn't blamed Goku for everything that happened. I mean, there's that flimsy justification which I don't buy for an instant and then there's Chi-Chi reaching levels of bitchiness only Bulma could match.

Krillin even calls her out on this, just in case the audience somehow missed the fact that Chi-Chi is being an uberbitch for no good reason and deserves massive scorn.

It's, in my opinion, the second-worst depiction of Chi-Chi in the entire series. The worst being in the Buu Saga, when not only is she Fridged to give Goten some added motivation, she politely opens the refrigerator door and climbs inside for her murderer.

She storms off to throw a fit at Majin Buu and then he kills her because of course he f*cking does, just in time for Goten to witness it and suddenly have feelings to feel. Not only did Chi-Chi get killed off for Goten's dramatic benefit, but they made it her fault for being Bitchy Before Reason.

Granted, we know "god" is a Forgetful Jones if there ever was one but anyone watched "Yo, Son Goku And His Friends Return" and or "Revival Of F" knows that statement is false.

That Word of God was talking about the end of the Buu arc prior to Battle of Gods, Revival of F, and Dragon Ball Super. When Battle of Gods came out, it became outright canonized with Beerus remarking in his first meeting on Kaio-sama's world that Goku could never have defeated Frieza as he is now and thus must have some method of increasing his power. Goku confirms and transforms.

He's become stronger in the time between Battle of Gods and Revival of F.

edited 14th Aug '15 6:51:17 AM by TobiasDrake

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BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
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#22763: Aug 14th 2015 at 7:31:04 AM

Since it was confirmed that Goku couldn't beat Frieza without Super Saiyan, even after the Buu saga. I think it goes with the Anime's canon that Full-Power Frieza was able to match Super Saiyan Goku, if only for a short time.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#22764: Aug 14th 2015 at 7:56:12 AM

Goku in base, without kaioken, was a lot weaker than Frieza's final form.

A lot weaker.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#22765: Aug 14th 2015 at 8:00:12 AM

At the time he fought Frieza, yes.

By the time he fought Buu, he was still weaker, but not necessarily a lot weaker. Personally, I like Saiga's estimate of 80 million as his Base BP. Weak enough to lose, but even just the standard Kaioken would put him above Frieza.

edited 14th Aug '15 8:01:27 AM by TobiasDrake

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BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
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#22766: Aug 14th 2015 at 8:06:04 AM

Goku is kinda Weak, but Skilled in certain ways isn't he

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Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
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#22767: Aug 14th 2015 at 8:16:24 AM

Super version of Beerus assessment was kinda weird. Like okay, he's weaker in base, all right. But then he said that Goku would have a hard time with Freeza as a Super Sayain, which really makes no sense at all.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
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#22768: Aug 14th 2015 at 8:19:16 AM

Which just kinda reinforces my theory that Super adheres to the Anime canon that Full-Power Frieza and Super Saiyan Goku were equals.

that or Beerus was just being a dick as usual.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#22769: Aug 14th 2015 at 8:20:46 AM

But Super Sayian Goku became like a lot stronger since his fight with Freeza. You can't retcon that away - well, you can but it's stupid and serves no purpose.

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#22770: Aug 14th 2015 at 8:22:05 AM

Yeah, there's really no way to justify Super Saiyan Goku having any trouble at all with Frieza in the Frieza arc, let alone by the time Buu comes along.

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BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
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#22771: Aug 14th 2015 at 8:24:10 AM

Then Beerus is just being an ass then.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#22772: Aug 14th 2015 at 8:55:15 AM

Huh. Now that I've seen Female Super Saiyan three......

It's a bargain sale on Super Saiyans at this point. It would mean less for Pan to become a Super Saiyan than it meant for Goten and Trunks to do it, and wouldn't change any of her scenes.

Hmmmmm......

But that's the problem. It means so much that she didn't become a Super Saiyan because it would mean so little for her to do so. The omission is what's meaningful because there is literally no reason for her not to be one. She was needlessly snubbed.

Quote. For. FUCKING. Truth.

It's like I said: They'll give multiple Super Saiyan forms to everyone and their mom DAD, including a pair of OCs, but they flat out refuse to do it for a character who actually exists.

I think I remember hearing Toriyama say something about female super saiyans not happening because women deal with anger better or something (which might have come before the whole hurr! I can't draw a girl super saiyan cause I don't know what one would look like!), but I doubt that was ever the case now.

It's clear someone somewhere (or a lot of someones) just have a ridiculously huge hang up over it.

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Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#22773: Aug 14th 2015 at 9:04:05 AM

Okay, so we can check the box on "Why is Pan not a super sayian" and "Chichi is needlessly demonized.". Now, don't forget about "Why Gohan got snubbed" and "Humans should be stronger." . We wouldn't want to miss anything from our daily complaint routine!

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#22774: Aug 14th 2015 at 9:18:49 AM

Thanks for the reminder man! I can't believe I forgot that stuff.

Now, I hate that Gohan got snubbed and the humans aren't strong.....

~Is bricked~

edited 14th Aug '15 9:19:00 AM by HandsomeRob

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#22775: Aug 14th 2015 at 9:24:48 AM

Seriously, it sucks that Chi-Chi never became a Super Saiyan, Pan was needlessly demonized, the humans got snubbed despite being the strongest warriors in the universe, and Gohan wasn't strong enough. These are all important points!

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