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unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#22726: Aug 13th 2015 at 5:56:34 PM

...The fact that she was nine and still had a scene where a space deer tried to breastfeed from her (why would that happen!? Ever!?) is one of the moments that is the most "what the fuck japan".

I mean, I felt distinctly unclean.

Like, why? Why did that scene need to happen? What purpose did it serve?

Couldn't Baby have snuck up on her while literally anything else was happening? I mean, Baby is creepy enough as it is. But apparently not as creepy as the writers.

(Like, seriously, that episode was actually, like, an arc episode. It was a moment where our heroes found out that the Big Bad was still alive and they ended up confronting him. Why did they feel that the episode needed. That. Any of that. Like. How. How does something like that happen even. What the actual hell GT. Why would that be in any episode.)

Like, nevermind the way her personality was made a little stereotypical at times, or the way she didn't tend to contribute to fights or the plot in general. And never went Super Saiyan.

The way she and Bra were both sexualized despite being preteens in the source material is. Just.

Ugh.

Yeah there is a long list of reasons why GT was awful on every single possible level.

EDIT: I hate every single one of you for reminding me of GT.

edited 13th Aug '15 6:17:19 PM by unnoun

Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#22727: Aug 13th 2015 at 6:19:02 PM

Really, it's not like it would have mattered that much. Pan could have achieved Super Saiyan 4 but would have contributed jack all because her name isn't Goku.

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
LOLypop1224 ...what am I even DOING here? Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
...what am I even DOING here?
#22728: Aug 13th 2015 at 6:25:20 PM

Pan in GT was WEIRD. Especially in the last arc. Like, she was fighting the Shadow Dragons with Goku, but it didn't really make sense. Why HER, of all people? Practically every other character could have been more useful in the fights.

Pan got a lot of screentime, but she wasn't really important.

Also, she was really annoying in the first arc.

The *Legendary* Super Saiyan is motivated by a crying infant! He is a literal giant f***ing baby!
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#22729: Aug 13th 2015 at 6:27:23 PM

If she did achieve Super Saiyan 4 she would have been sexualized in the creepiest ways possible.

Like she was already. Too many times.

...I mean, one of the things I did like about the end of Z was that it was all about legacy and stuff. It felt like an ending.

And Pan was sweet and cute. And her beating up people ten times her size was fun in the way that watching Goku do that was fun. But moreso because she was a girl, and because the way sexism works makes that more unexpected.

Why HER, of all people? Practically every other character could have been more useful in the fights.

If she had gone Super Saiyan that would have made more sense.

Also, she was really annoying in the first arc.

The fact that female characters tend to be described as "annoying" in this fanbase is.

Like, part of it is probably sexism on the part of the viewer, but part of it is probably sexism on the part of the writer too. Female characters in Dragon Ball have this tendency to be sorta. Homogenized. In terms of personality.

EDIT: God why do I even like this series at all.

edited 13th Aug '15 6:31:53 PM by unnoun

LOLypop1224 ...what am I even DOING here? Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
...what am I even DOING here?
#22730: Aug 13th 2015 at 6:32:46 PM

I don't find her annoying because sexism. She's annoying because she's an obstacle to the plot. The first few episodes are all about her causing problems for Goku and Trunks and never apologising or trying to fix them.

If she wasn't around, they could have gotten the Dragon Balls a lot faster.

The *Legendary* Super Saiyan is motivated by a crying infant! He is a literal giant f***ing baby!
TheAirman Brightness from The vicinity of an area adjacent to a location Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Historians will say we were good friends.
Brightness
#22731: Aug 13th 2015 at 6:35:18 PM

[up][up]Abs?

PSN ID: FateSeraph | Switch friendcode: SW-0145-8835-0610 Congratulations! She/They
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#22732: Aug 13th 2015 at 6:37:22 PM

I don't actually remember a lot about GT but I remember finding Pan annoying because she came off as really abrasive. Bulma was the same way. That could be chalked up to bad writing which could be sexism on the writers part but I don't see how that makes the viewer sexist.

Chichi does get a lot of sexist hate, though.

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#22733: Aug 13th 2015 at 6:39:00 PM

I don't find her annoying because sexism. She's annoying because she's an obstacle to the plot.

That's the case for a lot of female characters. Especially in this series.

Most notably, Chichi.

Women in Dragon Ball tend to be depicted "shrews" and "harpies" and all about getting their way and stubbornly refusing to budge and most of the comedy comes from how unlikeable we're meant to view them as, as well as them being put in their place.

I mean, that started as far back as Bulma being rude and selfish to Goku about everything and then needing to be rescued from a dinosaur and Monster Carrot.

It's a bit of a genre trope, almost. A recurring trend.

I mean, I like Bulma's egotism, especially since it's often justified by her brilliance, and because it matches her eventual partner perfectly. But she did start a bit of a trend for the female characters in this series, even if she didn't quite end up following that trend later.

...After she got sidelined and taken out of the "co-protagonist" chair, of course.

I don't actually remember a lot about GT but I remember finding Pan annoying because she came off as really abrasive. Bulma was the same way.

I mean. Vegeta comes off as really abrasive.

The fun thing with Vegeta is that he's usually coded with a lot of character traits that, within Dragon Ball, are usually the domain of female characters.

And somehow it works for him and people like him.

edited 13th Aug '15 6:44:43 PM by unnoun

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#22734: Aug 13th 2015 at 6:41:58 PM

Fact: Bulma is a selfish jerk.

Fact: Everyone in Dragon Ball is a selfish jerk one way or another.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#22735: Aug 13th 2015 at 6:43:18 PM

[up] That's not what I was saying?

It barely has anything to do with what I was saying?

I mean, there are multiple instances where Goku is shown being scared of Chichi and Bulma.

It's a plot point in Battle of Gods.

And it's played for laughs because.

...God it's too late for me to explain this.

Somebody tag in!

edited 13th Aug '15 6:53:41 PM by unnoun

LOLypop1224 ...what am I even DOING here? Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
...what am I even DOING here?
#22736: Aug 13th 2015 at 6:58:28 PM

Basically, the females are just there as obstacles? And unlike Vegeta, they don't make up for it later on?

Is that what you were trying to say, unnoun?

The *Legendary* Super Saiyan is motivated by a crying infant! He is a literal giant f***ing baby!
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#22737: Aug 13th 2015 at 6:59:17 PM

Sorta.

That does tend to be the case. Unfortunately.

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#22738: Aug 13th 2015 at 7:02:29 PM

I actually sympathize with Chichi quite a bit. In a more mundane 'verse, she'd be right. I dunno if the interpretation of her as a "shrew" is sexism on Toriyama's part, the fandom's, or both.

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#22739: Aug 13th 2015 at 7:07:10 PM

I mean, I feel like the negative reading of Chichi is the intended one.

Which is why I am all about either altering her portrayal, or subverting it, or both.

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#22740: Aug 13th 2015 at 7:08:32 PM

At least some of the Chichi hate seems to come from a mistranslation in the dub, too, where she calls Goten a "monster" rather than a "delinquent."

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#22741: Aug 13th 2015 at 7:10:47 PM

Yeah, I don't get most of Chi-Chi's hate. Who would WANT to send their 6-year-old son into outer space to some unknown alien planet in search of plot devices that tend to be a magnet for powerful supervillains, or drag him out to train so he can fight killer robots or a giant cicada who eats people with his tail.

I mean, in a way she's inhibiting the plot, yeah, but we only know that because we have the benefit of hindsight and trope expectations. We know Gohan's gonna be a Kid Hero and kick ass because we've already read/watched it or know what to expect, but as far as she knows her child is going to die cold and alone in the vacuum of space or get horribly murdered.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#22742: Aug 13th 2015 at 7:14:38 PM

[up][up]Also a little bit of cultural differences. What helps me is every time Chi-Chi calls Super Saiyans delinquents and terrible I just imagine that, instead of a golden plume of spikes, Super Saiyan is a green mohawk and I completely understand where she's coming from.

edited 13th Aug '15 7:15:34 PM by PushoverMediaCritic

Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#22743: Aug 13th 2015 at 7:17:05 PM

My hate for Chi-Chi largely stems from after the Vegeta fight where she completely ignores her broken and battered husband who can't even move in favor of her largely okay (all things considered) child. Even that wouldn't have been too bad if she hadn't had the gall to blame Goku for everything that happened.

That is largely why I hate Chi-Chi.

Well, that and the bowl cut. No kid deserves that.

edited 13th Aug '15 7:19:38 PM by Zelenal

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#22744: Aug 13th 2015 at 7:20:41 PM

[up] Well, her husband has saved the world more than once, I can see why she might think Gohan needed her more.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#22745: Aug 13th 2015 at 7:22:25 PM

I don't hate Chi-Chi but there's nothing about her I find likable so I treat her with indifference.

Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#22746: Aug 13th 2015 at 7:29:23 PM

[up][up] Again, my problem comes from that Goku couldn't move and was almost dead while Gohan was pretty much fine when he woke up. Even then, that wouldn't have bugged me that much if she hadn't blamed Goku for everything that happened. I mean, there's that flimsy justification which I don't buy for an instant and then there's Chi-Chi reaching levels of bitchiness only Bulma could match.

edited 13th Aug '15 7:30:27 PM by Zelenal

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#22747: Aug 13th 2015 at 7:31:14 PM

[up] I feel like, given the presentation. I feel like your reaction is exactly what was intended. So.

Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#22748: Aug 13th 2015 at 7:59:51 PM

So far, known female Super Saiyans include Note, Viola, Forte and Time Patrol Syf, who're all avatar characters.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
IndirectActiveTransport plays capoeira from Chicago (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Every rose has its thorn
plays capoeira
#22750: Aug 13th 2015 at 9:24:27 PM

It's a few pages back but "Word Of God says Goku never surpasses 100% Freeza in base"?

Granted, we know "god" is a Forgetful Jones if there ever was one but anyone watched "Yo, Son Goku And His Friends Return" and or "Revival Of F" knows that statement is false.

But yes, Freezer increasing his power and becoming a threat again was cool. So was the fact his army had increased in power too, enough for one of them to fight Piccolo, who was much stronger than Namek Freeza by that point.


As for super saiyan Pan? I maintain Dragon Ball Heroes is just waiting to see what happens in Super and any following projects because it's creators don't want to use that version of Pan and in fact want to make sure they find one completely divorced from it.

The idea that super saiyan forms wouldn't look right on girls never sat right with me though. This is a fighting series and super saiyan is a combat form so who cares if SS3SS4 girl looks hideous? I guess you don't want it being too goofy but if it was okay for the guys already it probably won't.

edited 13th Aug '15 9:25:34 PM by IndirectActiveTransport

Buldogue's lawyer

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