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BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#22401: Aug 7th 2015 at 10:45:46 PM

Sorry everyone, I should have been more clear.

I'm really bad at putting thoughts to words.

Especially if I'm stressed, which I was earlier.

what do you mean I didn't win, I ate more wet t-shirts than anyone else
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#22402: Aug 8th 2015 at 1:54:49 AM

Is it weird that my biggest DB disappointment was that, by the Buu Saga, even Piccolo was left in the dust? It doesn't bother me with humans very much. Just him. Why couldn't Toriyama pull out a bunch of new Namekian powerups to have him keep up with the Saiyans?

He could have. A better question is why would he? It didn't even go well for Piccolo the last two times he got major power ups because the story doesn't have much room to pander to side characters.

Fusion with Nail was introduced out of nowhere, and it meant absolutely nothing. Sparring evenly with Freeza's second form is just completely shallow and only served to extend a needlessly long fight.

Piccolo's fusion with God was simply the most sensible and fitting power up he was going to get, and it was wasted fighting Android 17 to a draw. It was good seeing him humiliate Cell, and actually helped Cell's character by forcing him to be smart, but it was a waste of build up.

Piccolo's power ups just didn't help his character or the story. I'd also hate to see a new power up be better than his fusion with God when the latter was so fitting.

Piccolo's best arcs, I feel, are the Boo and Saiyan arcs. No fancy power ups there. He is crucial to defeating Raditz, has character development throughout the Saiyan arc, and his role in the Boo arc is the freshest role he's ever had playing the straight man to Gotenks. It's okay for him not to fight if it means he gets to be entertaining.

There's really no reason why humans should be left behind either. They bullshitted up a few reasons for saiyans to become more powerful (Zenkai, transformation), so a new way for humans, or namekians, or anything really, to be more powerful can be similarly bullshitted up from narrative convenience.

I don't put much stock in an idea that can only be defended by relying on poor writing. Yeah, Dragon Ball gave some bullshit power ups to the Saiyans (I would not say Zenkai and transformation in general were this at all, but the worst cases of it were) but I don't see how that's going to do anything to make future bullshit okay. Weak writing will still be weak writing, I'd just rather not have that.

There is no pressing need to make the humans relevant. While I can fully understand people wanting that, I don't want to see lazy excuses just to please fans. I really don't believe the story should serve the characters.

edited 8th Aug '15 2:03:52 AM by Saiga

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#22403: Aug 8th 2015 at 3:09:21 AM

And yet Frieza got a bullshit power-up in the form of Gold Frieza, just so he could catch up to the literal gods Goku and Vegeta had become.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#22404: Aug 8th 2015 at 4:34:48 AM

And I thought that was an unbelievably terrible idea, so I don't see how that goes against what I said.

As I said: pointing out previous examples of bad writing doesn't justify including more.

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#22405: Aug 8th 2015 at 5:03:58 AM

Goku does not know Kibito Kai can make new Potara. He hasn't actually seen him do that and there's no reason why Kibito Kai would tell him he can do it.

Furthermore, at least in the latin version, I don't recall Vegetto ever being mentioned in the entire movie.

Either way, Goku can't accurately gauge whether or not a fusion would be able to take Beerus since he can't gauge Beerus' power. He just knows that he's strong enough to one-shot the SSJ 3 transformation... which Vegetto is also strong enough to do with similar ease.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#22406: Aug 8th 2015 at 5:10:32 AM

It's mentioned in the extended version of BoG.

While Goku can't sense his ki, the characters have shown to be pretty accurate at gauging strength from an opponent's movements at times.

The intent is very clear, at the very least.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#22407: Aug 8th 2015 at 6:55:25 AM

It kinda bothers me that Toriyama either can't or hasn't tried to make any of his side characters relevant. It's worse because he blatantly says he just...forgets and changes things on a whim.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#22408: Aug 8th 2015 at 7:04:59 AM

I'm okay with side-characters not doing any fighting.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#22409: Aug 8th 2015 at 7:30:42 AM

Can I say something? I never understood why people criticize Vegetto for letting himself get absorbed instead of just killing Buuhan. Vegetto was probably working under the assumption that killing Buuhan wouldn't necessarily free his family and Piccolo and there was a possibility that killing Buu wouldn't release them.

Actually, do we have any proof that killing him would work? For all we know, if Vegetto killed Buuhan than Buuhan would've appeared in the afterlife with all the people he absorbed still absorbed or killing Buuhan might've straight-up erased his family and Piccolo from existence.

I liked Vegetto playing it safe when it came to Buu because Buu murders gods and is a pink bubblegum Eldritch Abomination, who knows how he works.

If being absorbed permanently bonded them to him on a spiritual level to the point that they could not be separated by, say, wishing for their freedom on the magical dragon that can do almost anything, then Vegetto's decision would be even more stupid because the result would be Vegetto himself being permanently bonded to the point that he could not be separated.

The entire choice to go inside Buu is founded on one basic principle that Vegetto took for granted: that it is possible to separate people after Buu absorbs them.

  • If this principle is true, there is no reason to go inside Buu. Shenron and Porunga can do the heavy lifting after Buu is destroyed, and he won't be able to resist in any way because he won't keep his body in the afterlife, so he won't be a god-killing abomination anymore. Goku had to make a plea to the heavens for Buu to retain his power when he did finally destroy him with the Genki-Dama, because that's not how afterlife in Dragon Ball normally works.
  • If this principle is false, there is no reason to go inside Buu. If he had absorbed their very souls to the point that they are inextricably part of Buu forevermore, then Vegetto allowing himself to be absorbed only serves to make Buu more powerful and doom the universe forever.

edited 8th Aug '15 7:33:39 AM by TobiasDrake

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Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#22410: Aug 8th 2015 at 8:29:50 AM

I personally think it's bad writing to have only 1 and a half competent characters to begin with, so it's probably going to be bad writing whether or not anyone else suddenly gets more powerful.

I have a message from another time...
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#22411: Aug 8th 2015 at 8:33:44 AM

It's not unusual for anime to have only one guy who could ever stand a chance at defeating the bad guy. Dragon Ball's just more blunt about it than most.

For example, the other Senshi are window dressing; Sailor Moon will always be the one to administer the final blow, and her one and only attack is "Instantly defeat the bad guy." The rest of the action is just buying time until she lands it.

edited 8th Aug '15 8:34:42 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#22412: Aug 8th 2015 at 8:42:59 AM

[up][up]I think that is way too broad a statement to really be true.

And I'd like to say I'm not a fan of putting Goku and Vegeta as the only competent ones. But that's only a status quo that was in place from everything that came out since the manga ended, and even then there's still a big gap between them and the humans. Not talking about strength, but I mean that there are several characters who aren't Goku and Vegeta who would still be logical choices over the humans for relevancy.

Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#22413: Aug 8th 2015 at 8:52:53 AM

Sorry. I suppose I should be saying "not-Saiyans" rather than "humans" in particular.

Or "not-Goku", even. I've had entirely enough Goku.

I have a message from another time...
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#22414: Aug 8th 2015 at 9:14:55 AM

@Tobias Drake

You're working under the assumption that Shenron or Porunga could affect Buu. We know that they would not be able to, for the same reason why they can't just be used to kill Buu to begin with.

Also your example has the hilarious inversion in that Usagi is arguably the least competent of the Sailor Senshi.

edited 8th Aug '15 9:16:12 AM by IAmNotCreativeEnough

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#22415: Aug 8th 2015 at 9:19:49 AM

[up]

Least competent (if you go by the first anime) but still the most powerful.

In both the Manga/Crystal, and the original anime, she still lands the final blow.

Hell, in the former, she's one-shotting enemies who easily defeat and capture the other Senshi.

One Strip! One Strip!
Lionheart0 Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: I'm just a hunk-a, hunk-a burnin' love
#22416: Aug 8th 2015 at 10:13:38 AM

Tried to see Resurrection F this morning. The only theater playing it in town only had one showing and it was completely sold out.

IndirectActiveTransport plays capoeira from Chicago (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Every rose has its thorn
plays capoeira
#22417: Aug 8th 2015 at 10:21:56 AM

For separating those inside of Buu? Cell spit up 18 after absorbing her and Gotenks came undone inside of him. It was a gamble, but not one made on a whim and he had a good enough reason to try.

Edit: Oh wait, Piccolo doesn't need to around for Dragon Balls anymore. So it wasn't that urgent but a father not wanting to obliterate his kids still makes sense.

edited 8th Aug '15 10:24:00 AM by IndirectActiveTransport

Buldogue's lawyer
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#22418: Aug 8th 2015 at 1:59:24 PM

I am glad the series has dialed back on the Serial Escalation a tad; as stupid as it is, I feel it's at least better than the non-saiyans not being able to contribute much if at all.

Yes, Piccolo was very entertaining as Gotenk's' Straight Man, but he spent a majority of the arc as a literal statue and then got absorbed. Krillin, a character who at least had a lot good character moments despite not catching up, barely has a presence himself.

I'm not asking for all non-Goku & Vegeta characters to fight more, but fuck, a character arc or something would be nice.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#22419: Aug 8th 2015 at 2:26:32 PM

The thing is, as stated prior, everyone had completed their character arcs by the Cell Saga. The Buu Saga was all about Goku trying to Pass The Torch only to realize that Gohan was useless and Goten was too much of a kid so he had to come out of retirement.

edited 8th Aug '15 3:06:46 PM by Zelenal

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IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#22420: Aug 8th 2015 at 2:47:41 PM

There is no u in torch.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#22421: Aug 8th 2015 at 2:50:01 PM

Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Super Perfect Cell.

Please make this happen Dragonball Heroes.

edited 8th Aug '15 2:50:25 PM by Soble

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#22422: Aug 8th 2015 at 2:56:08 PM

Just because one arc ended doesn't mean you can't come up with another.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Cider The Final ECW Champion from Not New York Since: May, 2009 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
The Final ECW Champion
#22423: Aug 8th 2015 at 4:34:00 PM

You know, people complain about Dragon Ball's use of characters but I think it's a sign of strong characterization that almost everyone is someone's favorite. I think Chi Chi is the only widespread scrappy.

Modified Ura-nage, Torture Rack
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#22424: Aug 8th 2015 at 5:15:36 PM

Doesn't mean you have any good reason to either.

Yes, Piccolo was very entertaining as Gotenk's' Straight Man, but he spent a majority of the arc as a literal statue and then got absorbed. Krillin, a character who at least had a lot good character moments despite not catching up, barely has a presence himself.

15 chapters of an 81 chapter arc is not a majority. And he doesn't even need to appear for the majority of it because he's a side character - as long as his active appearances are good, and they were, that's enough.

Kuririn doesn't have much presence in that arc which I'm happy for because 18 was given a larger role instead. Kuririn has had plenty of focus from his introduction way back in the start of the manga, much better idea to focus on the newer character.

But now because Kuririn is older and more popular she's completely screwed despite needing the development WAY more.

That's the thing with the older characters - they've had a lot of screentime already. We've got newer characters that are already getting neglected for the old favourites.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#22425: Aug 8th 2015 at 6:55:23 PM

That's still 18%, its not a majority sure but its still part of the arc he's just...inactive.

And 18 barely had any more screentime than Krillin, she had that side plot with Mr. Satan and then it was more or less back to the main plot from then on.

But yes, we have an established cast that are continuously pushed aside for our far stronger protagonists and whatever new character that gets introduced.

[up][up] Well, I wouldn't say its the same but rather just a case of Ensemble Dark Horse; the non-saiyan characters get so little screentime that they're bound to have a cult somewhere.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.

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