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VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#22101: Aug 3rd 2015 at 9:47:46 AM

Fans in general are rather divided on where they stand with the Super Saiyan forms.

Some think Super Saiyan 3 should have never been introduced. Some think Super Saiyan 2 should have never been introduced, and perceived Gohan using it as just him mastering his rage boost in the Super Saiyan state. Some think Super Saiyan should've been the only form ever, even taking it further and saying they only want Goku to have it.

And then we get into Super Saiyan 4, Super Saiyan God, and Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. Super Saiyan 4 is considered one of the only good parts of GT for its design and activation requirements but is disliked for bring in GT and being over-designed. Super Saiyan God is liked and disliked for being super easy to summon and looking like a re skinned Kaioken. Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan mostly has its name working against it.

edited 3rd Aug '15 10:13:36 AM by VeryMelon

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#22102: Aug 3rd 2015 at 10:00:49 AM

This is helped by Super Saiyan 1 being the most useful form.

As part of Toriyama's tendency to write by the seat of his pants, he accidentally undercut Super Saiyan 2's usefulness and made it redundant. In the final beam struggle between Gohan and Cell, Gohan's been reduced to half his strength from tanking a killshot meant for Vegeta. Half of Super Saiyan 2 is equivalent to the full power of Super Saiyan 1.

That the equivalent of Super Saiyan 1 was still enough power for Gohan to overwhelm and destroy Super Perfect Cell - with aid of a distraction from Vegeta, mind - means that Super Saiyan 1 Gohan could easily have overpowered and destroyed Perfect Cell, and possibly have done so without Gohan losing himself to the bloodlust of Super Saiyan 2 and becoming sadistic.

Thus, it's easy to conclude that Super Saiyan 2 at best was pointless, and at worst was actively counterproductive and caused more harm than good. The reality of the situation is simply that Super Saiyan 2 was a cool idea Toriyama had, and he didn't really think about the ramifications of the final Super Perfect Cell exchange.

Super Saiyan 3, meanwhile, gets criticized for the way it bleeds power, not unlike Frieza's 100%. It's a power vacuum that sucks up everything. It ate Goku's time on Earth, it ate Gotenks's fusion time, and it bled power in the final battle with Pure Buu too quickly for Goku to recharge, ultimately kicking him back out in Base when he was supposed to be storing up energy to destroy Pure Buu. Super Saiyan 3 is a massive leech.

So it's easy to assume that it's a bad form. However, as Saiga has pointed out, even with the power drain, if you can't defeat a foe within a few minutes at 400x your full power, you couldn't have won that fight anyway.

Super Saiyan 1 is popular because it's stable and has put in a pretty good showing, and it not only defeated the villain it premiered against, but actually seemed necessary in doing so. There's no denying that without Goku's eleventh hour transformation into a Super Saiyan, the battle against Frieza would have been the "Shaggy Dog" Story that the characters repeatedly insisted it could only be.

edited 3rd Aug '15 10:02:22 AM by TobiasDrake

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Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
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#22103: Aug 3rd 2015 at 10:35:01 AM

The worst thing about Super Saiyan 2 is that Toriyama could have just easily made Super Perfect Cell a bit of a challenge for Gohan. At least make it like how Freeza was for Super Saiyan Goku. I mean, Super Perfect Cell is Super Perfect Bullshit anyway so he might as well have gone full force.

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#22104: Aug 3rd 2015 at 10:39:13 AM

That's true. Super Perfect Cell was a prime opportunity to bring Cell back as a dangerous threat that pushes Super Saiyan 2 Gohan to his limits. Instead, Toriyama resorted to nerfing Gohan, which completely undermined Perfect Cell's threat potential as a side effect.

edited 3rd Aug '15 10:39:38 AM by TobiasDrake

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Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#22105: Aug 3rd 2015 at 10:56:04 AM

Supah Purrfic Cell fired a blast that left Gohan crippled.

When Freeza fought Goku, he got smacked around. Going 100 percent gave him a small window to play catch-up, then he continued getting smacked around.

With Cell, after all of their efforts, he came back even stronger and Gohan was weakened.

And he had the lightning aura, characteristic of SSJ 2.

edited 3rd Aug '15 11:06:18 AM by Soble

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Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#22106: Aug 3rd 2015 at 10:59:28 AM

Gohan was only crippled because he didn't properly block it. He couldn't properly block it because he had to move to protect Vegeta (this is somewhat like how Goku had to use the Kaiou-ken to stop Nappa despite being about twice as strong). Even if Super Perfect Cell has the lightning aura of Super Saiyan 2, that doesn't change the fact that he was defeated by Gohan when he was at half strength with a 100x power booster which is equivalent to Gohan at full strength with a 50x power booster.

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VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#22107: Aug 3rd 2015 at 11:01:35 AM

Cell had Goku's genes. There was no real reason not go give him Goku extremely powerful Zenkais so he could match SS 2 Gohan.

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#22108: Aug 3rd 2015 at 11:18:30 AM

That's looking purely at statistics.

Visually, emotionally, the battle still portrayed him as a dangerous threat. The only person who stood any kind of a chance against him at the time was Gohan, Vegeta got smacked down in seconds and Trunks was one-shotted. And then Gohan himself was ready to give up until Goku chimed in. And even then, Super Perfect Cell had the advantage until Vegeta distracted him.

So he wasn't quite "SSJ 2-powerful". He was still powerful enough to wipe the floor with everyone else present at the moment, and lucky/fast enough to cripple a stronger opponent. This might be semantics, but Cell was still represented as a dangerous threat.

That's true. Super Perfect Cell was a prime opportunity to bring Cell back as a dangerous threat that pushes Super Saiyan 2 Gohan to his limits

A common criticism of Dragonball is the repetition, yes? This sort of thing happened with Frieza, Vegeta, Piccolo, and Buu - the hero gained a new form, then was suddenly pushed to their limits.

Rather than a knock-down drag-out fight, why not have the hero nerfed? It's different, it's fresh. Even if you established Super Perfect Cell as a threat to SSJ 2 Gohan before Gohan got hit, you'd still have Gohan be injured later, and kill Cell shortly after.

edited 3rd Aug '15 11:42:20 AM by Soble

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VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#22109: Aug 3rd 2015 at 11:28:53 AM

We're just asking for a Super Perfect Cell that can actually match Super Saiyan 2 Gohan. Nothing about the original fight after Cell's Zenkai has to be kept intact. Just have the 2 fight it out and Gohan wins after the Beam Struggle without any other character getting involved. Or have Vegeta die while trying to avenge Future Trunks so Gohan doesn't lose any power trying to protect him beforehand.

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#22110: Aug 3rd 2015 at 11:34:28 AM

Gohan did need a distraction from Vegeta and possibly some supernatural assistance from his dad to defeat Cell...

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#22111: Aug 3rd 2015 at 11:36:24 AM

He only needed Goku's spiritual help because of Vegeta needing to be saved, which is Vegeta's own fault.

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#22112: Aug 3rd 2015 at 11:37:23 AM

Wasn't there an image of Goku appearing behind Gohan when he made the final Kamehameha?

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#22113: Aug 3rd 2015 at 11:38:53 AM

I've never really thought about it because the games always gave the impression that SSJ 2 Gohan and Super Perfect Cell were on the same level.

So, headcanon defense.

-shrug-

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VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#22114: Aug 3rd 2015 at 11:38:56 AM

[up][up]Spiritual aid.

edited 3rd Aug '15 11:39:19 AM by VeryMelon

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
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#22115: Aug 3rd 2015 at 11:40:58 AM

Maybe that's why Toriyama retconned Super Saiyan 2 and 3 out and just modified the classic version lol.

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VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#22116: Aug 3rd 2015 at 11:42:29 AM

They aren't gone, Super Saiyan 2 and 3 just fell into So Last Season due to how easy it is to become a Super Saiyan God.

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#22117: Aug 3rd 2015 at 11:44:22 AM

...one has to wonder.

I mean, coming up with Super Saiyan God and having SSJ 3 treated like a pincushion in the film...

[down]That too, why didn't Goku go SSJ 2? Or 3, since he was so desperate to take Beerus out?

The meta reason is that SSJ just looks the best. In-universe, this is maybe 24 hours after Goku used SSJ 3 in a sparring match.

edited 3rd Aug '15 11:46:19 AM by Soble

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BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
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#22118: Aug 3rd 2015 at 11:44:36 AM

True, but that still doesn't change that Goku was stronger as a SSJ 1 than its evolved forms in the finale of BOG and then stuck with that in following movie.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#22119: Aug 3rd 2015 at 11:49:00 AM

I feel that it's a precursor to Goku using the Super Saiyan 1 state to hold his God form up.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#22120: Aug 3rd 2015 at 11:54:48 AM

A common criticism of Dragonball is the repetition, yes? This sort of thing happened with Frieza, Vegeta, Piccolo, and Buu - the hero gained a new form, then was suddenly pushed to their limits.

Rather than a knock-down drag-out fight, why not have the hero nerfed? It's different, it's fresh. Even if you established Super Perfect Cell as a threat to SSJ 2 Gohan before Gohan got hit, you'd still have Gohan be injured later, and kill Cell shortly after.

Because it defeats the purpose of giving Cell a zenkai in the first place.

Why even bother making Cell more powerful if it doesn't actually change his relative position compared to Gohan and the others? Perfect Cell was already far greater than anyone but Gohan, yet sorely inferior to Super Saiyan 2 Gohan. Nothing really changed after he returned from the dead.

edited 3rd Aug '15 11:55:22 AM by TobiasDrake

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#22121: Aug 3rd 2015 at 12:05:35 PM

Except he didn't need the Androids anymore. And, statistically proven or not, Cell went from being afraid of Gohan to openly challenging him. The Zenkai caused that. It made him the strongest guy around.

edited 3rd Aug '15 12:10:53 PM by Soble

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#22122: Aug 3rd 2015 at 12:10:24 PM

But it didn't. It only made him stronger than the people he was already stronger than, and he still paled in comparison to Gohan's overwhelming power.

The dynamic changed from

  • Super Saiyan 2 Gohan
  • Perfect Cell
  • Vegeta and Trunks

to

  • Super Saiyan 2 Gohan
  • Super Perfect Cell
  • Vegeta and Trunks

edited 3rd Aug '15 12:10:59 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#22123: Aug 3rd 2015 at 12:10:37 PM

He was never stronger than Gohan once Gohan became a Super Saiyan.

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#22124: Aug 3rd 2015 at 12:30:55 PM

[up][up]

You're criticizing the purpose of involving Super Perfect Cell, saying that that form did nothing to change the power totem, saying that Super Perfect Cell wasn't a threat.

Perfect Cell couldn't do anything to Gohan. Perfect Cell couldn't directly injure had trouble with SS 1.3 Trunks, he only had the edge in speed, and he probably couldn't one-shot Vegeta the way Super Perfect Cell did, or injure Gohan. This is an assumption, because maybe Perfect Cell could have wounded Gohan if he was off-guard, we'll never know.

There's no physical evidence of how strong Super Perfect Cell is other than his change in attitude (being terrified of Gohan, to suddenly being confident) and his ability to injure Gohan (which is mitigated by the fact that Gohan wasn't on-guard). He also had the lightning arcs that identify SS 2, indicating an increase in power. Albeit, none of these are absolutely conclusive - I think being able to hurt Gohan might be, but you'd disagree.

Those are my observations - Super Perfect Cell was, by those observations, stronger than Perfect Cell, at a level where he was dangerous to Gohan without a need for extensive proof. Without Super Perfect Cell, the plot has three directions:

  • Perfect Cell fails to one-shot Trunks, fails to put Vegeta in a position where he needs to be saved, and Gohan kills him.
  • Or, Cell doesn't regenerate into Super Perfect Cell, and Goku kills him.
  • Or, Cell survives, regenerates into Semiperfect Cell, and Gohan kills him.

I don't have a perfect answer, but I can say that having Super Perfect Cell be what he was makes more sense to me than having Super Perfect Cell be just as strong as a SSJ 2, and then having a far weaker Gohan defeat him, inviting more power level confusion.

You have to accept a contrivance due to Goku's spirit pushing Gohan to defeat Cell either way. I like the final battle with Cell as is.

So again, shrug.

edited 3rd Aug '15 12:39:09 PM by Soble

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Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
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#22125: Aug 3rd 2015 at 12:35:03 PM

Super Sayian 3 always felt like the odd man out from the other forms for me, maybe because It's the only for not used as the arc ending power up.


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