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BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#21901: Jul 29th 2015 at 8:38:55 AM

I guess I gave him too much credit, huh? :P

what do you mean I didn't win, I ate more wet t-shirts than anyone else
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#21902: Jul 29th 2015 at 8:45:03 AM

It happens.

I'm not even sure he thinks through what he's doing right now all that much. [lol] Like Super Saiyan 2, for example.

By the time Cell enters the picture, battle powers have ceased to be numbered, so nobody's exact power is set in stone. After making such a big fuss out of getting Gohan to Super Saiyan 2 so he can beat Cell, Super Perfect Cell manages to land a shot that Gohan's forced to tank to protect Vegeta.

The damage from this reduces Gohan to 50% of his power, which puts him on-par with his original Super Saiyan form. This proves to still be enough strength to win the Beam Struggle and destroy SP Cell, with the aid of Vegeta's distraction and Goku's emotional support.

In establishing that Super Saiyan Gohan is powerful enough to destroy Super Perfect Cell, the Fridge Logic this creates is that Super Saiyan Gohan was already far beyond Perfect Cell's ability, and the entire introduction of Super Saiyan 2 is rendered completely unnecessary as a consequence.

It doesn't actively contradict previous continuity the way Frieza's introduction does, but it's still a glowing example of how Toriyama doesn't really think too far ahead, and just does things because they're awesome.

edited 29th Jul '15 8:45:36 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#21903: Jul 29th 2015 at 8:48:47 AM

I think if he was going to introduce SSJ 2 as a cool new transformation, making it just x2 SSJ's power was a little underwhelming.

what do you mean I didn't win, I ate more wet t-shirts than anyone else
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#21904: Jul 29th 2015 at 8:56:58 AM

And then there's this asshole.

The transition from the Saiyan Saga to the Frieza Saga is a little rocky as a consequence of previous assertions that Saiyans are one of the strongest races in the galaxy and they travel the galaxy genociding races and selling their planets to the highest bidder, until one day their planet got blown up by a meteor. The anime even goes further with the story and asserts that the meteor was summoned by their planet's God, to end the tyranny of his people.

Frieza retcons the entire story by asserting that 1) they didn't travel the universe killing and selling planets to the highest bidder on their own, they were doing that in service to him, and 2) there was no meteor, Frieza destroyed their planet himself. It also muddies the issue of the Saiyans' relative strength by having Vegeta, the most powerful Saiyan, a super-elite, humiliated by aliens more powerful than him.

In most cases, this is excused by them being Frieza's highest elites. They're not representative of their species in the same way that Vegeta and Goku aren't, they're the cream of the crop and, in later interviews, they're even established to be mutants to further establish that they are not indicative of their species as a whole.

But then there's Cui. We know shit about Cui. He wasn't around long enough nor memorable enough to ever receive the same justifying answers as Zarbon, Dodoria, and the Ginyus, and he wasn't a highest elite figure; he was just one of Frieza's men who happened to consider himself Vegeta's rival. He did so because he had a battle power equal to Vegeta's (before the Earth zenkai).

This random dipshit alien is as powerful as a Saiyan super-elite for no reason that is ever established beyond Toriyama wanting to give Vegeta a cool moment of killing him. He literally just shows up, confuses the issue of Saiyan power compared to the rest of the aliens, and then abruptly dies. He is so unimportant that half the audience didn't even remember he existed until he started showing up in the video games, prompting a lot of confused players to ask who the f*ck that guy is. One could be forgiven for thinking he's a mook.

But he's not a mook. He's just some asshole who is as powerful as a Saiyan super-elite because reasons.

edited 29th Jul '15 8:59:24 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#21905: Jul 29th 2015 at 8:58:03 AM

When I think about it, Gohan being the one to destroy Cell kind of comes out of left field.

I mean, it's not Trunks who came back from the future to change things and save the world, nor Goku, the guy who's death he came back to prevent, but Gohan the guy who in orginal timeline outlived the rest of Z warriors by 16 years and didn't accomplish squat against Androids in that time, now save the day against much more powerful foe.

Also, Gohan's involvement in the arc prior to that was pretty small, so it's not like he was getting any special focus that could foreshadow it.

[up]Through the whole Namek Saga we hear Freeza's men talk shit about Sayians. Either they weren't as much of a warrior race as they liked to talk about, or Freeza's men were fronting now that they were mostly extinct.

edited 29th Jul '15 9:09:35 AM by Shlugo_the_great

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#21906: Jul 29th 2015 at 9:04:28 AM

Indeed. The sudden shift from "The Saiyans are a super-dangerous race of galactic genocide guys and you should fear them for their awesome power," to "LOL, Saiyans, amirite guys?" is another example of the lack of forward planning in Toriyama's writing.

After all their build-up in the Saiyan Saga, they got brutally shoved down the elevator shaft of the Sorting Algorithm of Evil to make way for Frieza's empire.

Frieza himself would be on the receiving end of this when the story makes a point of having him return even more powerful to threaten the Earth only to have a bridge dropped on him, his entire invading force, and his father who they just introduced because Toriyama decided he was done with that story and wanted to do a different one about time travelers instead.

edited 29th Jul '15 9:05:59 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#21907: Jul 29th 2015 at 9:12:17 AM

[up] I actually doubt the decision to bridge-drop Frieza was a last-minute one. His return and death all happen over the course of like four chapters.

edited 29th Jul '15 9:12:50 AM by HamburgerTime

BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#21908: Jul 29th 2015 at 9:17:02 AM

I think for the Saiyans, it would have made more sense if they had them be a threat to Frieza's Empire, rather than subservient to it. Where Saiyans were stronger than most of the people under Frieza's command minus Frieza himself.

Which would have made Frieza destroying their planet make a lot more sense. He would have been getting rid of an actual threat rather than a mostly perceived one.

That's what I think, at least.

what do you mean I didn't win, I ate more wet t-shirts than anyone else
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#21909: Jul 29th 2015 at 9:28:53 AM

Frieza himself was kinda just dropped; Planet Vegeta was originally doomed by meteors before one man went all genocide.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#21910: Jul 29th 2015 at 9:38:58 AM

Ya know, Planet Vegeta being destroyed by a meteor is kinda ridiculous when they could have just had a bunch of the strongest Saiyans get together and blow it the fuck up.

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#21911: Jul 29th 2015 at 9:55:02 AM

lol blewd up filthy monkey planet

what do you mean I didn't win, I ate more wet t-shirts than anyone else
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#21912: Jul 29th 2015 at 9:58:12 AM

Should've told Frieza to keep off the Twitter.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
LordofLore Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Consider his love an honor
#21913: Jul 29th 2015 at 10:46:06 AM

Hmm, I'm wondering if when Whis says the trip will take ~22 minutes he's talking about episode time rather than in universe time. From when they left to the middle of next episode it should be about that amount of time.

Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#21914: Jul 29th 2015 at 11:04:04 AM

He said the same thing in the movie, though.

Re: training and average folks: I feel like most of the main characters could operate under the mantra of potentially great power coming with great responsibility. At least until Goku takes all the responsibility and power at the last minute.

I have a message from another time...
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#21915: Jul 29th 2015 at 11:17:03 AM

[up][up]Could mean both.

Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#21916: Jul 29th 2015 at 11:18:02 AM

Whis and Beerus should have left right at the beginning of the episode and arrive right at the end.

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
MyssaRei Since: Feb, 2010
#21917: Jul 29th 2015 at 11:25:40 AM

[up]

Actually Whis gave an exact number — 26 minutes. The problem is this is the run time of an anime IF you included the station advertisements and whatnot at the start and end of shows (remember back in Madoka's live airing with Morning Rescue? Stuff like that) AND the OP and ED.

If they wanted to be really meta about it, they'd have Whis and Beerus leave during the middle of one episode, and arrive in the middle of the next one.

edited 29th Jul '15 11:27:44 AM by MyssaRei

Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#21918: Jul 29th 2015 at 11:29:35 AM

I distinctly recall Whis saying that it would take "about 22 minutes."

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
MyssaRei Since: Feb, 2010
#21919: Jul 29th 2015 at 11:38:10 AM

[up]

The Blu-Ray and even the English dub of Battle of the Gods say 26 minutes. ;) The latter of which has Beerus doing a goofy pose before they launch off to King Kai's planet.

edited 29th Jul '15 11:41:03 AM by MyssaRei

Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#21920: Jul 29th 2015 at 11:45:56 AM

Doesn't Beerus actually comment that their trip will take as long as an episode of an anime?

Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#21921: Jul 29th 2015 at 11:48:56 AM

Yes.

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
MyssaRei Since: Feb, 2010
#21922: Jul 29th 2015 at 11:55:38 AM

Standard TV-aired anime (non-shorts) are never less than 24 minutes though.

MsCC93 Since: May, 2012
#21923: Jul 29th 2015 at 12:09:18 PM

So, to you, it's like a Kinakakash/Kida kinda thing?

Well, whatever you call it, then yes.

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#21925: Jul 29th 2015 at 1:58:46 PM

That's gotta become a meme.

what do you mean I didn't win, I ate more wet t-shirts than anyone else

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