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Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#21651: Jul 23rd 2015 at 6:52:39 PM

Given that this is Bulma we're talking about, it's entirely possible she set it all up in day.

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Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#21652: Jul 23rd 2015 at 10:29:34 PM

The anime has very little to do with the card game, 'cause nobody in the anime actually knows how to play and nine times out of ten, they flat out make up the cards' effects as they go.

Eh. The worst of that was in the first season, before a defictionalized card game and rules actually existed, hence the abrupt rule shift in Battle City. Said insane first season did lend itself to some wonderful cards, though.

There are still some moments, though. Mainly anything to do with a God card, Bakura, or that Dragon arc.

edited 23rd Jul '15 10:30:27 PM by Enlong

I have a message from another time...
BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#21653: Jul 23rd 2015 at 11:31:39 PM

[up][up][up]You know, considering in BOG, Beerus said that there are several parallel universes, Super might be in a different one from it.

edited 23rd Jul '15 11:31:51 PM by BaconManiac5000

what do you mean I didn't win, I ate more wet t-shirts than anyone else
TheMageofFire Since: May, 2012
#21655: Jul 24th 2015 at 12:37:01 AM

Ah, but the fundamental flaw is that because it's made of stupid energy, it can't hurt anything that's stupid.

And since the whole universe runs on the fundamental law of sheer stupidity, Cell wouldn't be able to hurt anyone!

Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#21656: Jul 24th 2015 at 12:45:54 AM

The the Z-Fighters, they got the street smarts, it counts!

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#21657: Jul 24th 2015 at 3:50:21 AM

@Enlong The manga actually gets worse in Battle City, but you're right that the anime Battle City tightens things up a bit. And then there's the DOMA arc. And then the last arc is mostly nonsense until the final duel.

I love YuGiOh, but the rule fuckery in both the anime and manga series is really jarring to me.

I wouldn't say Zenkai is a Voodoo Shark because it wasn't intended to explain previous events. It was introduced to provide power ups where training wouldn't work. Goku's training enroute to Namek is the only training that fit in the arc, and that only allowed for six days to get Goku back into the plot sooner.

There's only one line that relates it to Goku's history and that doesn't actually contradict anything. It doesn't really explain anything either, because the series was originally written without it in mind, but it can be taken along with the post-beat up power ups Goku did get to help explain why the increases are so large.

Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#21658: Jul 24th 2015 at 4:02:38 AM

Honestly, that line from Krillin is pure BS only because I can't recall a single instance of him being around to see Goku be defeated and then come back stronger. He wasn't around for Tao Pai Pai or Piccolo Daimaou and those are the only two who I can think of that defeated Goku outside of the Tenkaichi Budoukai.

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Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#21659: Jul 24th 2015 at 4:17:44 AM

He doesn't talk about defeat. He talks about "fierce fighting" and he actually does make a comment in the Red Ribbon Arc about how Goku got a lot stronger since the tournament (before Tao Pai Pai). According to Roshi, Goku could've died in their battle, so that works out nicely.

But just the general "Goku keeps fighting lots of crazy battles, and each time I see him he is much stronger" fits Kuririn's statement.

The Kaiouken actually has a better track record than any Super Saiyan transformation. The Super Saiyan transformation was only useful for defeating Freeza and then was rendered completely useless (since Piccolo could have handled 19 and 20 with no problem), Super Saiyan 2 was only useful for defeated Cell, and Super Saiyan 3 was never useful for defeating anyone. Meanwhile, Kaiouken was useful for technically defeating both Vegeta and Ginyu.

This is... really inaccurate. Super Saiyan wasn't useless after Freeza (already two fights), the fact that Piccolo can take on 20 doesn't make it useless for Vegeta defeating 19 - in fact, Vegeta was stronger than Piccolo, but couldn't take on 19 and 20 in a row due to losing energy. So let's not assume Piccolo could take them both "no problem". He beat up Android 20 with, according to Piccolo, no worthy amount of energy absorbed. Whether he could take on Android 20 at the same time as a Goku-fueled 19 is a different question.

Then Super Saiyan was mostly useful for allowing the Saiyans to put up a fight without being instantly killed. Defeating villains isn't the only thing that makes a transformation useful. It also allowed Gohan to free the Z sword, without that Evil Boo kills everyone (no U. Gohan or knowledge of potara's effect). So even in the Boo arc it contributes to victory.

Super Saiyan 2 killed Yakon post-Cell, otherwise it was underutilized because of Super Saiyan 3 being introduced so soon after it.

Super Saiyan 3 allowed Goku to delay Boo, impress him, and coerce him to off Babidi and listen to his request. Super Saiyan 3 let Gotenks stay alive instead of being killed by Boo, it also let Goku put up some fight against pure Boo instead of getting thrashed like Vegeta did.

Kaio-ken is about as useful as these, not more so. Goku lost his first fight with Vegeta despite using the Kaio-ken, and several other factors were all more important to that eventual victory. It let him beat Nappa, who was already way weaker than him, but he probably saved Gohan and Kuririn who would later be needed to beat Vegeta. It played a role in beating Ginyu, but in a rather obtuse way. It could be argued that it allowed him to survive longer against Freeza, but Freeza was just toying with him at that point and adjusting his power appropriately. He probably would just use less power if Goku didn't have Kaio-ken.

Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#21660: Jul 24th 2015 at 5:26:44 AM

Due note that I was purely talking about defeating opponents, not surviving longer in a fight some alternate use like pulling the Z Sword. Under your definition, yes, they're all about equally as useful. Also, did Goku even use Super Saiyan 2 against Yakon? I can't recall if he had the lightning aura in the manga.

As for the Kaiou-ken, while it didn't allow Goku to win on his own, there was absolutely no one who was potentially capable of defeating Vegeta in his place whereas Piccolo could probably defeat Android 19 and 20 especially with help (even if one of them absorbed some energy or he took a bit of a beating, Senzu Bean!). And yeah, Ginyu may be stretching it since he arguably defeated himself by being too obvious with the body change (the fact that a frog just happened to be within easy grabbing distance is just universe mocking him).

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Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#21661: Jul 24th 2015 at 6:17:22 AM

I don't see any reason to talk only about defeating opponents though. As I said, that's not what makes them useful and it shouldn't be the only thing to count on something's track record.

I already pointed out, Piccolo probably can't take both of them. Trying to take a senzu bean in the middle of a fight is a bad move as well.

Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#21662: Jul 24th 2015 at 6:27:56 AM

No you didn't. You said:

[...]in fact, Vegeta was stronger than Piccolo, but couldn't take on 19 and 20 in a row due to losing energy.

Which is completely irrelevant.

So let's not assume Piccolo could take them both "no problem".

Without giving me any reason to believe that.

He beat up Android 20 with, according to Piccolo, no worthy amount of energy absorbed.

Which I don't even understand what you're trying to say here.

Whether he could take on Android 20 at the same time as a Goku-fueled 19 is a different question.

It would be but it's also completely irrelevant. Piccolo wouldn't have to fight both at the same time for the exact same reasons Goku and Vegeta didn't. And for the exact same reasons the heroes never have to fight two people at the same time other than Goku VS Burter and Jeice.

Trying to take a senzu bean in the middle of a fight is a bad move as well.

How so? Given how fast these characters move, it wouldn't take more than a split second for Krillin to toss it while Piccolo's standing a bit away form them and for Piccolo to then grab and eat it. Especially since the villains (and heroes) let characters do shit like this all the time.

edited 24th Jul '15 6:28:10 AM by Zelenal

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
Cruherrx I say things. from my own little world Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
I say things.
#21663: Jul 24th 2015 at 6:34:05 AM

Saiga, get into 5D's.

That's the only Yugioh I can recommend to anyone outside of the original

"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#21664: Jul 24th 2015 at 6:35:44 AM

It's completely relevant that Vegeta couldn't take them both on at once, because he was nearly forced to.

And "the same reason Goku and Vegeta didn't" well Goku didn't because one was enough to beat him, and Vegeta didn't because he bluffed Gero which amazed Piccolo.

In fact, most of the times the heroes don't need to deal with two enemies, it's because one is enough to wreck whoever they're facing.

What I'm saying is that 19 and 20 weren't impressive without energy absorbed, and Piccolo noted that 20 hadn't been able to score anything decent before fighting Piccolo. Which means his feat isn't as impressive as defeating 19, and doesn't even mean he COULD beat 19.

They move fast, but so do their opponents. And saying the enemies let them do that shit doesn't actually make it a better idea, because any idea that relies on your opponent not doing anything is a fucking dumb idea. The whole reason Vegeta bluffed 20 was so that he could take a senzu bean without any risk of intervention. Also, Kuririn is nowhere near as fast as the Androids.

Most of your argument boils down to more meta reasons which are really useless here.

[up] I did, but something about the earlier episodes annoyed me. I expected it to be a period with less bullshit but the early episodes have some really bad duels, like that old man's treasure deck and how every non-major duelist has some random made up gimmick. I only got as far as that little girl's duel against the annoying ass psyche dude with the dumb psyche-based deck.

edited 24th Jul '15 6:37:21 AM by Saiga

Cruherrx I say things. from my own little world Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
I say things.
#21665: Jul 24th 2015 at 6:42:28 AM

They get cooler later on. Those guys are tournament filler. Think of them as 5D's' Wolfmen.

Everyone talks about how great the first half of the series is, but I prefer the post-64 episodes.

"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#21666: Jul 24th 2015 at 6:52:57 AM

I was meant to be watching it somewhat simultaneously with Lu-tama but she left me behind.

Giving my tendency to dramatize everything, my heart is broken and I cannot go on with the series.

Also I have waaaay too big a "to read/watch" list. Only just finished the Rurouni Kenshin manga after like a year.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#21667: Jul 24th 2015 at 6:55:34 AM

If we're limiting usefulness purely to defeating enemies, I think you'll find the Kaioken actually comes up short. The only enemy it ever defeated was Nappa, who Goku was already far afield of anyway; it turned an already guaranteed victory into a swift curbstomp so he could focus on Vegeta.

Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2 both trumped a main villain, while the Kaioken only allowed Goku to defeat a minion he was already capable of defeating a little bit quicker.

Like the Super Saiyan forms, the majority of its usefulness came from allowing Goku to hold his own and continue carrying the fight against enemies who were substantially more powerful than him, for long enough to find a solution.

edited 24th Jul '15 6:59:11 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Cruherrx I say things. from my own little world Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
I say things.
#21668: Jul 24th 2015 at 7:00:07 AM

The Kaioken indirectly led to Ginyu's defeat.

[up][up]I never did trust that Lu.

"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."
LordofLore Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Consider his love an honor
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#21670: Jul 24th 2015 at 7:56:31 AM

But when will we get the music video for the dance off?

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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#21672: Jul 24th 2015 at 8:27:46 AM

[up]Wasn't expecting that. Odd video.

Now that these points about the Kaiouken have been brought up, I realize that it doesn't have all that good a record.

I still think the idea of a technique that boosts your powers for a brief second and completely fucks up your enemy's ability to tell how strong you are is a great idea, especially if you could control it to the extent that Goku learned to.

I actually think his display of power during his fight with Burter and Jeice (moving so fast he looks like he's standing still, constantly raising his power level in a second and then going neutral) was a result not just of his Zenkai, but his increased control of Kaiouken I would have love to see the other Z warriors pulling similar stunts, but as pointed out, the Power Levels got too high and left the humans in the lurch.

Plus, no one teaches anyone anything in this series (with the sole exception of Gohan training Videl and Goten to fly) so it was never passed on to anyone else. I feel like there was still potential there, and it just went to waste.

But I've harped on this issue for too long, and too many times so I'll be quiet for now and then bring it up again in a week stop for now.

.....yeah, that cross out part is probably more accurate.

edited 24th Jul '15 8:29:13 AM by HandsomeRob

One Strip! One Strip!
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#21673: Jul 24th 2015 at 8:33:27 AM

Goku was taught the kaioken and Spirit Bomb by King Kai.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#21674: Jul 24th 2015 at 8:35:59 AM

Ok, two examples.

Still though, that's two instances where we know someone was directly taught something.

Along with all the others I'm probably forgetting And that's it.

One Strip! One Strip!
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#21675: Jul 24th 2015 at 8:51:55 AM

And one of those would have been repeatable given that it was the technique in question being taught by a trainer the humans explicitly trained under.

Yeah, the main reason the humans didn't get the Kaioken is just because it wouldn't make a difference after Namek's insane power escalation. Like, being super-generous, let's say Kaio-sama's training got Yamcha and Tien up to 20,000 and they fired up the Kaioken x20, the most powerful form of Kaioken we've ever seen outside of movies!

BOOM, 400,000 battle power on Yamcha and Tien! That's almost enough to not lose too horribly against Frieza's first form! In the Android Saga!

They would need to find some other excuse to skyrocket their powers high enough to catch up with the Super Saiyans like Piccolo did, and then - as with Piccolo - the Kaioken would be sort of redundant because if you're going to bullshit their powers up, might as well go all the way.

The Kaioken was too little, too late.

edited 24th Jul '15 8:54:00 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.

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