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PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#21301: Jul 19th 2015 at 3:16:39 AM

The main problem with how Death Battle judges Superman is that they use a handful of OMNI'ahem' sorry omnipotent feats that are really inconsistent and make no logical sense that someone powered by sunlight should be able to do these things. But the main fault falls on the WRITERS at DC! Who somehow think that it is a good idea to have Superman do things that would make him literally omnipotent with no regard for internal consistency. Between this and the live-action films which appear to be a rebirth of the 90sAntihero, I may have to give up on DC all together.

JonnasN from Porto, Portugal Since: Jul, 2012
#21302: Jul 19th 2015 at 4:24:19 AM

If you see stories as a matter of "how can our hero defeat the threat?", then Superman is boring, but most Superman stories are about his moral struggles (there's a reason as to why his arch-nemesis is human).

Also, Superman having galactic strength from a sun is no more ridiculous than Goku's planet-busting abilities being powered by rice bowls tongue But I agree, DC writers tend to just give Superman immense feats without thinking, or caring, about their scale (a man-made machine measured Superman's strength at something like 200 quintillion tons. Absolutely ridiculous, not only would that strength send the machine flying, or cause a gigantic crater on the ground, it's also not measured in Newtons tongue).

The battle was good, though, even if the ending was a bit depressing.

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#21303: Jul 19th 2015 at 4:36:11 AM

My views on canon are actually the exact opposite of Unnoun's, in that, unless stated otherwise, all works of fiction have a solid, strict canon to adhere to.

you must die

Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#21304: Jul 19th 2015 at 4:47:58 AM

No unnoun, you are zombies!

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#21305: Jul 19th 2015 at 4:48:55 AM

@Saiga

That's funny, because I seem to recall that, in the series, being able to copy other people's moves after seeing them once was always a show of significant skill, and treated as such with everyone who's capable of doing it.

I don't recall it ever being said that copying ki blasts is easy, anywhere.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Cronosonic (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#21306: Jul 19th 2015 at 5:04:53 AM

The problem with western comics is that, aside from single-series comics that are meant to stick to one writer and actually have a conclusive ending, comic books shift writers quite often (there are exceptions, such as Dan Slott's stranglehold over Spider-Man, but again, that's an exception). And then there's books involving teams of heroes. Inevitably, a writer who either doesn't care or doesn't get certain characters end up writing them, and Superman is no different.

Could be worse, though, Silver Age Supes was pulling out powers out of his ass every month.

edited 19th Jul '15 5:07:49 AM by Cronosonic

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#21307: Jul 19th 2015 at 6:04:41 AM

More on-topic, I'm a black belt in Taekwondo and it took me a year to learn how to do a Butterfly Kick from my first time seeing it, so I can attest that copying martial arts techniques is not ridiculously easy and doing it easily counts as a skill.

You must have missed where I said that real life martial arts wasn't what I was talking about, and physical attacks wasn't what I was talking about.

[up][up] Tenshinhan mentions that the Kamehameha is easy to copy, and while it's easy to just say he is particularly skilled nobody but Roshi has shown difficulty copying it. If everyone is super skilled than it is just as meaningless as nobody being particularly skilled. Then the Taiyo-ken is stated to be easy to copy by Kuririn, who brushes off Cell using it because of this reason.

Nobody made a big deal when Vegeta and Goku casually busted out Kienzan, or Kuririn and Goku use the Taiyo-ken. Techniques are recycled all over the shop without much attention being drawn to it. The only one that really gets hyped up is the Kamehameha, which is hilarious because that's also the move used by the largest number of characters.

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#21308: Jul 19th 2015 at 6:08:01 AM

My main problem with the Death Battle is mainly that it somehow assumes that Superman's strength is somehow infinitely scalable

That's sort of my problem too. To me it sounds like, "Goku's power level is x. Superman's power is INFINITY."

That's not... that's not a superpower.

That said, while I'm no physicist, fiction seems to indicate that surviving a black hole is more or less having the power of INFINITY or some ridiculously unquantifiable amount of power.

Vegeta died when Frieza blew up the planet, and Superman breaks planets with ease. I'm perfectly fine with Goku losing, but "Superman's power is MAXIMUM!" is not the kind of answer the fanboy in me wants to hear.

Which is completely irrelevant to their analysis, but I'm still not happy about it.

My takeaway from that Death Battle is Goku's new SSJ form: Super Ultra Combo With Fries Saiyan.

edited 19th Jul '15 6:10:57 AM by Soble

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#21309: Jul 19th 2015 at 6:10:39 AM

Well to be honest even if you ignore that you've still got a ridiculous feats Superman has. The calcs from the last death battle make it extremely clear that Goku is getting nowhere near him, unless you get into wild speculation at which point you may as well not use Goku.

Raven666 I'd totally hug you if that was something I did from Everywhere and Nowhere. I'm watching you. Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
I'd totally hug you if that was something I did
#21310: Jul 19th 2015 at 6:12:51 AM

Wait the Goku Superman Rematch is out? I'm on death battles Screw Attack page right now and their most recent video is Doom vs Vader. Is it only up on Youtube or something? I was looking forward to reading the comments section.

What started out as a pleasant afternoon of drugs and surgery has not gone as planned.
Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#21311: Jul 19th 2015 at 6:14:56 AM

[up][up]Not to mention the "heard a pin drop lightyears away through the vacuuum of space" thing they brought up this time around. Understandably, writers began nerfing him a bit.

[up]Its' been out, its on Youtube now, it wasn't last night.

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#21312: Jul 19th 2015 at 6:27:58 AM

@Saiga

Every character that copied the Kamehameha quickly and easily is explicitly mentioned to be very good at it. Meaning, Goku, Tenshinhan and Majin Buu. Yamcha copied the Kamehameha on his own, yes, but it's implied that he didn't do it anywhere near as quickly as Goku or Tenshinhan did, that it took him work to do. Krillin took a long time to be able to do his own Kamehameha. Gohan could only do the Kamehameha after training with his father in the time chamber, in which he presumably was taught the move.

The only character who does not have a master's training and copies the Kamehameha on his own without outside help?

It's Goku. Everyone else has training in ki beforehand. Goku saw it once and despite not even being able to use ki for anything else, he was immediately able to figure it out.

I'm sorry to say, Saiga, but while you do have a point in that in most shonen skill is purely an Informed Attribute, in this case, Goku's talent for picking stuff up is not informed, it's continuously demonstrated in the manga, also seen when he manages to learn the Kaioken and Spirit Bomb, two moves that are so ridiculously difficult that their creator couldn't pull them off.

And that's not even getting into him figuring out how to get the most out of the Super Saiyan transformation or creating Super Saiyan 3.

edited 19th Jul '15 6:30:52 AM by IAmNotCreativeEnough

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
JonnasN from Porto, Portugal Since: Jul, 2012
#21313: Jul 19th 2015 at 6:47:33 AM

While copying certain techniques is sometimes seen as no big deal (Taio-ken, Kienzan, Kamehameha were fairly easy to replicate), the fact that nobody ever copied the Kaioken, Spirit Bomb, Instant Transmission, four-armed technique, etc. suggests that the "copiers" are just good at understanding how ki manipulation works, but something that falls outside of simply "manipulating your own ki into a beam/disc/flash" is hard to emulate. Even Tenshinhan's flying took work to learn (Krillin was the first to successfully copy it, and others were surprised that he accomplished it)

Either way, this discussion started with Gohan, and he's a guy who never copied or created any technique, everything was taught (In fact, I personally find Gohan's arsenal to be pretty cookie-cutter and uninspired). Even Masenko is likely something Piccolo taught him, judging by the name.

Cronosonic (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#21314: Jul 19th 2015 at 7:00:15 AM

[up]x5: Again, the problem with many of those feats is that they tend to be either inconsistent or don't make sense. Keep in mind that, again, DC has been nerfing the guy repeatedly for a reason.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#21315: Jul 19th 2015 at 7:02:43 AM

Actually, North Kaio could use the Kaio-Ken, albeit really shittily. When Goku is about to leave, North Kaio says that he has mastered the Kaio-Ken beyond what he himself was capable of. North Kaio not being able to use the Kaio-Ken is an invention of the anime, I think, I don't really care about the anime.

edited 19th Jul '15 7:31:20 AM by PushoverMediaCritic

Cronosonic (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#21316: Jul 19th 2015 at 7:25:07 AM

By the way, should Beerus and Whis' character tropes be moved to another section, since they're no longer purely movie villains anymore?

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#21317: Jul 19th 2015 at 7:41:10 AM

So I watched Dragon Ball Super ep 3:

They seem to have removed the things about Beerus telling Frieza to blow up Planet Vegeta. They also moved Bulma's party to a boat instead. Also, now that we know that the amount of time you are dead is not a factor in being revived for the earth dragon balls, I kinda see King Kai's point about it being a dick move to not revive him.

One Strip! One Strip!
Cortez from Parts Unknown (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#21318: Jul 19th 2015 at 8:08:01 AM

Are you sure? The spanish sub i watch still mentioned Beerus telling Frieza to destroy Planet Vegeta

MyssaRei Since: Feb, 2010
#21319: Jul 19th 2015 at 8:08:41 AM

[up]

Also Old Kaiohshin actually SAYING Beerus was the one who chucked him into the Z-sword.

I did love the scenes with Krillin's family though. Also bright move there, bud — you and your wife CAN fly. Avoid the traffic at the same time too!

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#21320: Jul 19th 2015 at 8:10:11 AM

As 18 pointed out, they should have done that in the first place really.

One Strip! One Strip!
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#21321: Jul 19th 2015 at 8:30:02 AM

Saying that some techniques were 'fairly easy to replicate' is kind of dumb, though, because, well, it's simply not true. If that were so, loads and loads and loads of people would be able to do them, but there's only a handful of people who can do it in the entire world.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
JonnasN from Porto, Portugal Since: Jul, 2012
#21322: Jul 19th 2015 at 8:44:00 AM

[up]Okay, I guess "relatively easy" is a more fitting term. It's easy to replicate for those who are already good at using ki attacks in the first place.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#21323: Jul 19th 2015 at 8:47:52 AM

Well I don't want to be that guy but... using Ki apparently WAS easy to do because Gohan wrote a self-help book that taught the average Joe how to fly and fire Kamehamehas.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#21324: Jul 19th 2015 at 8:50:54 AM

In Online, which seems to have been retconned.....

Though it apparently takes place far in the future so who knows.

One Strip! One Strip!
Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#21325: Jul 19th 2015 at 8:51:23 AM

Super's third episode... I'm thinking Whis is gay, from the way he blushed when Beerus was in the bath. This is anime ,they're never subtle, when you're turned on, you have a nosebleed or turn plum red, when you're disgusted, you convulse and flee the area.

Whis's reaction was a blush and a "Oh, Lord Beerus".

Is Whis supposed to be male or female, or since he's a god, does it matter? I mean, Beerus is evidently male, and they're voices say as much.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

But see, now I'm curious because the other Whis looks more feminine, and the other Beerus looks similar to his counterpart. Its just one characteristic that's more pronounced.

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!

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