Reading that, I now understand why Toriyama put Goku back as the main character.
I thought that was more Unnoun's thing than Saiga's.
Though with how things are going, I'm starting to think that it doesn't matter who says it, since it may be the best way to view things.
One Strip! One Strip!I really hate the death threats rumour. There's no evidence of it, and Toriyama's not a perfect writer.
I think it makes the most sense to take Toriyama at his face value, because Goku is much easier to write as a main character than Gohan is. Toriyama started to lean on Idiot Plot as a crutch later in his career, and Goku facilitates them much better. He has admitted that Vegeta was useful for the same reasons.
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As I understand, unnoun is opposed to the concept of canon. I am not opposed to the concept, but I feel that it doesn't exist without any official decree as their is not a consistent enough definition for fans to apply it.
edited 18th Jul '15 7:05:37 PM by Saiga
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Oh, my god. I don't want to get involved in this. I don't care. I don't think I ever cared.
The problem is, by trying to return to the old status quo, Gohan has stopped being a character. I think it's worse than how the humans have been handled. At least then, they have a legitimate reason for being irrelevant. They can't get stronger. But Gohan can. And the writers keep stopping him out of some stupid desire to stick to formula.
edited 18th Jul '15 7:09:50 PM by LOLypop1224
The *Legendary* Super Saiyan is motivated by a crying infant! He is a literal giant f***ing baby!No, IIRC Unnoun's thing was saying how the author's word doesn't matter.
Saiga's all about how the Japanese have no concept of canon as we use it.
Personally, I regard what is written directly by Toriyama as 'canon', and regard his word as law with regards to the DBZ universe, even when he is blatantly wrong, when he retcons something or when he is just revising events. This does not mean I take his word as gospel and think he is infallible or that I like everything that's 'canon'.
I think that Mr. Satan being retconned into a coward was fucking bullshit of the highest level. It's canon, yes, but it doesn't mean I have to like it.
Similarly, Gohan being a complete dumbass is, well, canon. It's what he consistently does and how he consistently behaves that marks him as such. I don't like it, and would prefer that he be used more competently.
I actually don't think that the way Ultimate Gohan lost to Super Buu was a bad idea in theory. There are some parts of it I disagree with in practice, but I do think that Gohan losing despite his superior power because he's lost most of his edge as a result of a relatively long (for this universe anyway) period of peace has merit to it. I don't particularly like the fact that Gohan lost a fight in which he outclassed Buu so severely. I think it would've been better if he had actually been closer to an even match with Buu and Buu won not through a convenient absorption, but rather just being a clever opponent preying on Gohan's inadequacies as a fighter, born from the fact that he just does not have the warrior instincts that he used to have anymore.
So, instead of Goten and Trunks conveniently showing up at just the right time and fusing at just the right time on top of that, Buu instead lays a trap for Gohan by keeping one of his bodyparts detached and then distracting him. Then you give Gohan one last moment of awareness to go "Crap baskets, I didn't know he could do that!" so that you have a reason why he didn't see it coming and boom.
It also has the added benefit of Vegetto not being so horrendously strong as he is in canon. (And Vegetto's powerlevel is even worse in the Anime, in which he wtfstomped Buu in frikkin' base form.)
edited 18th Jul '15 7:15:05 PM by IAmNotCreativeEnough
himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimariI actually think Goku works better as a secondary, mentor character like how he appears early in the Boo arc. I don't want him to be completely written out or anything.
But I feel Gohan succeeding him fits the series' underlying themes much better. Dragon Ball did have a theme of succession before Gohan entered the scene, with Roshi learning to pass the torch down to the next generation and Toriyama even considering ending the series with a Roshi-esque Goku having passed down the torch. Furthermore, it's pretty easy to argue that Gohan actually is the protagonist for the Saiyan and Namek arcs - he is at the forefront of all the major developments, while Goku is only concerned with the climatic battles.
Gohan succeeding fits him wanting to be a protector, fulfills Goku's wishes of the Earth being able to handle threats without him, and answers Goku's flawed protection with someone who actively wants to put an end to conflicts rather than allowing them to escalate.
When Goku is put back into the leading role, it sort of fucks up a lot of what was being built up and leaves the series without any really consistent messages.
I thought Gohan's "skill" was more the informed attribute. His fighting style is increasingly one dimensional as the series progresses, even more so than Vegeta's. Yamucha, Roshi, Tien, Piccolo, Krillen, even Goku, even Freeza, Gotenks, ect show noticeable approaches and quirks in their fights, not to mention make use of a wider and more versatile range of techniques.
And even if Gohan has more potential power, that in of itself doesn't detract from Goku's aptitude. It was Goku who figured out the full power super saiyan increase. Gohan, when left to his own devices, doesn't become nearly as powerful, he can't even make future 17 use 50% of his power. Even Super Saiyan 3, was as Vegeta eventually realized at the end of the series the Buu Saga, was not the result of Kakarot having some super special gift but Kakarot being better than him. But just look at the two as kids. Goku didn't just learn techniques after a viewing them, he improved upon them. He recognized his own weakness and took initiative to correct it. He found the weaknesses in his opponents who had inherent advantages over him and also goaded people into making mistakes. He retained the lessons taught by his teachers. Gohan pulled more power out of his ass when he got angry. That he flies at his opponents in rages implies less skill, as it was shown by both Goku, Nappa and Vegeta that it is better to fight with a cool head. Gohan benefits from a power boost to compensate for the sloppiness that comes with it.
Or maybe that's a plot hole? Like Goku being three years old when he got sent to Earth and hearing from his father not to look at the moon? (stupid Dragon Ball Minus)
Buldogue's lawyerGoku's character works fairly well and evolves according to his role in the story. He goes from the main fighter in from the start to the end to being the flanking cavalry that comes in to end the conflict in one fell swoop.
himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimariಠ_ಠ
I feel it doesn't exist without official decree and I'm opposed to it.
Like. I recognized that things like Star Trek and Star Wars have a canon. I just don't like it is all.
No, you do not recall correctly because that doesn't even resemble my thing.
I mean, I've argued that an author's word isn't absolute, and you need to be aware of context and the limitations of authorial intent, but.
This is also true.
How all fights would go, really.
Agreed, actually.
I kinda like Goku as a mentor.
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Anyone's skill is more of an informed ability than anything else, is my point. The series just doesn't dwell on it, so a lot of things are just assumed.
Also if flying off in a rage is a sign of sloppy fighting than Goku is also sloppy, because he does that as well. He just doesn't get a power boost from it.
Having special techniques is not a marker of skill either, especially when they're easy to learn. Freeza is certainly intended to be a brute force fighter, yet he has one of the largest libraries of techniques.
It's worth noting that Gohan managed to last more than 20 minutes against the vastly stronger Bootenks unassisted, when Bootenks had already expressed his intention to finish things quickly, and he also put up a good fight against Vegeta when he was outclassed in strength (even caught Vegeta with a feint maneuver). So he definitely has skill, but the series just isn't as interested in measuring character's skill against each other as it is in measuring power.
edited 18th Jul '15 7:26:44 PM by Saiga
I mean, most of the time, Shonen protagonists AREN'T the protagonists. They're just the guys who get stuff done. But the conflicts don't always revolve around them.
Even between Goku and Freeza, Goku hadn't even met Freeza until he showed up to the fight! Vegeta had to explain all the horrible things he had done!
The *Legendary* Super Saiyan is motivated by a crying infant! He is a literal giant f***ing baby!That's funny, unnoun, because I do recall you saying that the author's word did not matter at all and that the author's interpretation of their own work is irrelevant and that it's an exchange and all sorts of things that basically boiled down to the simple point of you saying that it doesn't matter what the author says about their own work.
Either that, or I'm confusing yours for suspiciously similar arguments I've seen with crappy fanfic writers who insist they're better than the original.
himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimariThat seems like a gross oversimplification?
...Or I start to ramble and say shit I can't remember the next day when I'm tired and cranky and have been arguing about something pointless for an hour.
I was gonna say that yeah, you could have been projecting.
...I might agree with those arguments depending on what they were though.
edited 18th Jul '15 7:27:12 PM by unnoun
...Huh. Weird.
...I think I do remember that sorta.
I also remember being incredibly frustrated and emotionally drained and more than a little angry and spiteful over being continually misunderstood.
...I will say and do most anything out of spite.
My actual feelings on the subject are more nuanced than that.
edited 18th Jul '15 7:32:12 PM by unnoun

Sometimes I think the thing about the death threats were true.