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Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#21226: Jul 18th 2015 at 1:28:29 PM

Looking back at the teaser pic, I think that's actually a SSJ Tarble.

The silhouette seems to have Saiyan armor.

IndirectActiveTransport plays capoeira from Chicago (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Every rose has its thorn
plays capoeira
#21227: Jul 18th 2015 at 2:31:31 PM

Tarble as in "My defining trait is being a weakling" Tarble? Doesn't making him a super saiyan kind of miss the entire point?

Speaking of which, that's one thing I don't like about Dragon Ball Minus. We already had an ostracized saiyan who can't fight.

Why not a saiyan conman(conwoman)? A saiyan conversationalist? A saiyan taxonomist? A saiyan rancher? A saiyan coach? Blacksmith, trader, mathematician, priestess, bodyguard, hustler, racketeer, activist, lawyer, mortician, brewer, noodler?

Buldogue's lawyer
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#21228: Jul 18th 2015 at 2:54:47 PM

I don't think Tarble is stronger than Muten Roshi, much less Super Saiyan material.

LOLypop1224 ...what am I even DOING here? Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
...what am I even DOING here?
#21229: Jul 18th 2015 at 3:13:46 PM

[up] You do know that isn't stopping Heroes, right? No one is SSJ 3 material, but look what happened there.

I AM surprised in the lack of Super Saiyan Pan. But I guess most people who play this game are boys, and they've got the female avatar to fulfil the "gender diversity" quota.

The *Legendary* Super Saiyan is motivated by a crying infant! He is a literal giant f***ing baby!
Demongodofchaos2 Face me now, bitch! from In a Cultivation World (Ancient one) Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Face me now, bitch!
#21230: Jul 18th 2015 at 4:03:09 PM

Doesn't stop Claymore form being a Shonen series.

Watch Symphogear
Cortez from Parts Unknown (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#21231: Jul 18th 2015 at 4:32:54 PM

Yeah, if heroes can have a SS 3 Broly, then we should also get a SS Pan,Fasha or even Gine.

edited 18th Jul '15 8:21:32 PM by Cortez

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#21232: Jul 18th 2015 at 4:35:47 PM

I mean, a Super Saiyan 3 Tarble would be even more unfair.

If Heroes is hyping even the male Saiyans that aren't combat focused?

That takes the unfairness even further.

edited 18th Jul '15 4:39:06 PM by unnoun

Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#21233: Jul 18th 2015 at 4:44:24 PM

Look at it this way: They're eventually going to run out of characters and transformations so it has to happen sooner or later.

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#21234: Jul 18th 2015 at 4:49:20 PM

Toriyama: Why would you want transformations for the womenfolk? What good is being Super Saiyan in the kitchen?

My various fanfics.
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#21235: Jul 18th 2015 at 4:50:38 PM

I wonder if heroes will eventually turn everyone into a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyna.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#21236: Jul 18th 2015 at 6:03:39 PM

That Gohan kind of would never get anything new because it'd be out of character for him to get anything new, considering he has no intention of training...

That's not out of character. It's a what-if, and Gohan has trained before when he saw it as necessary. Hell even in the Boo arc, where he slacked off, he started his training when he had something to train for. And he continued his training in GT, which Heroes also covers.

I mean they gave future Trunks Super Saiyan 3 BEFORE he went back in time, Bardock Super Saiyan 1 to 3 when he's originally intended to be a low class failure, Broly Super Saiyan 4 when he doesn't meet the rationality requirements, and have invented super forms with no explanation whatsoever.

"What if Gohan trained, like he has before" really isn't so unreasonable.

That would imply he intends to ever have an use for that power - and he doesn't.

Gohan would love nothing more than not having to fight because he's not powerful enough to be relevant.

This is outright false. Gohan does not like being powerless - he's expressed frustration with not being strong enough multiple times and jumped at the chance of gaining more power. He doesn't like training, he doesn't like fighting, but he still wants to be capable of protecting Earth.

The last time Gohan was powerful enough to be relevant, not only did he not succeed in accomplishing anything, he actually made the situation worse.

The argument is that he should know by now to keep up his training to protect the world and, well, no he shouldn't. If he takes anything away from Buu, it should be to bow out and leave it to the characters who actually enjoy doing this.

Goku's fault. Goku let Boo be released, Goku let Boo live, Goku made Gotenks, Goku distracted Gohan when he got absorbed. Remove Goku at any part of this and Boo isn't a threat. Gohan didn't do anything to make the situation worse, because Goku can't defeat any form of Super Boo without fusing with Vegeta. So remove Gohan, and Goku still needs to fuse with Vegeta to have a fighting chance.

The series has made it abundantly clear that Goku is not a competent protector of Earth due to his Saiyan instinct. His enjoyment of battle has always been a character flaw. His enjoyment of battle is what creates the problems of the Android and Boo arcs, solving the problems he creates doesn't earn him any points. Especially when he still needs the assistance of others to solve those problems.

That's the problem with trying to argue that Goku is the more sensible choice for Earth's protector. It subverts the entire point of his character, that he is not some righteous hero, that he fights for selfish reasons and their are consequences as a result of that.

Even in Resurrection F, Freeza was only a problem because Goku and Vegeta were too keen on fighting one-on-one. So their enjoyment of fighting even makes them worse fighters.

Knowing when to ask for help is a sign of maturity, not weakness.

My dad's a mechanic. I'm a database administrator. There's nobody better qualified to fix my family's PC troubles than me, but I can't code a working carburetor.

I agree that knowing when to ask for help is a sign of maturity, but that doesn't apply to the Gohan scenario.

For starters, he has more potential than Goku, and Goku's supposedly superior skill[[labelnote:Important!]]I say supposedly because it can easily be argued to be an informed ability, we're told he is a combat genius more often than we're shown it. Skill in Dragon Ball was simply never Toriyama's priority, and combat genius seems to refer more to the increase in Goku and Vegeta's strength more than anything. That's actually how genius is commonly used in shonen materials.]] has been demonstrated as not enough to make up for this difference - as seen in the two times we can directly compare Goku and Gohan, against Cell and Boo. Goku was seriously outmatched in his fight against Cell, performed admirably but that didn't change that he could not win. Gohan reached the point where Cell was helpless, even after displaying more power than he used against Goku. Then against Boo, Goku has absolutely no options to fight Evil Boo, Gohan crushed him. Even Gohan's screw ups don't compare to Goku simply being ineffective.

So when Gohan is at the top of his game, he's more capable than Goku. The only reason he asks for Goku's help is because he isn't taking matters into his own hands.

"If it was possible for you to become a mechanic", implying that because he has power, he should train it. Implying that because his father is a fighter, he should become a fighter as well.

Yes, he should train it. Because otherwise, he won't be capable of protecting his family, friends, and Earth itself from future threats. And he has definitely shown that he wants to be able to do that, so it's not like he's completely content with his weakness and people are saying he needs to be a stone cold badass.

He doesn't want to be powerless. So that means he must either train, or make use of the other potential power ups that are out there.

Plus with his power being uniquely high, it is easy to argue that he has a responsibility to hone it. Because it's very possible for a threat to appear that only a fully powered Gohan could defeat - like the incident with Cell.

edited 18th Jul '15 6:24:51 PM by Saiga

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#21237: Jul 18th 2015 at 6:21:11 PM

Gohan waits until a threat's right on his doorstep to begin training, though. He's kind of dumb about that, 'cause he expects to be done every time a great threat is destroyed/forced to back off/convinced not to destroy the planet because we make great pudding.

And I'll admit that I exaggerate on Gohan's unwillingness to train, however, it still is a fact that he would prefer not to actually have to protect Earth. Which is what ultimately ends up happening, since he's not a God and seemingly has no intention of becoming a God, which would be the next step necessary to remain in relevancy.

Plus, using DBGT to justify any argument at all is... well, it makes you look like you're reaching for straws.

And as for Goku being more 'skilled' than Gohan being an Informed Attribute... well we know that Skill in Shonen is almost always an Informed Attribute, because, well, it's for young boys and young boys tend to be very, very dumb, so you have to dumb things down to appeal to them. However, Goku does show fighting genius. Not strategic or tactical genius, he shows extreme aptitude to learn stuff, like the Kamehameha, and he clearly knows really frikkin' complicated techniques that nobody else can do, like the Kaioken and the Spirit Bomb and hell, he's such a natural genius at fighting that his body learned how to fight at the level of a God on its own after getting the power once.

So, yeah, there is an actual show of what is meant when one says that he's a fighting genius.

By contrast, Gohan's 'potential' is just that, potential, and it's never truly realized 'cause he doesn't want to realize it.

edited 18th Jul '15 6:29:24 PM by IAmNotCreativeEnough

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#21238: Jul 18th 2015 at 6:26:11 PM

Why would Gohan train if there's no immediate threat though? He doesn't like to fight and only does so out of necessity, so he has no reason to train in times peace and actually focus on his own life.

Like seriously, its "dumb" because he doesn't want to dedicate his life to fighting like his father?

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
LOLypop1224 ...what am I even DOING here? Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
...what am I even DOING here?
#21239: Jul 18th 2015 at 6:26:20 PM

I honestly feel like they have to make Gohan not train because if he did, then he could easily be stronger than Goku.

The problem is no one knows what to do with Gohan's character right now. He's not allowed to get stronger than Goku again, so he's just...there. Not doing anything important.

The *Legendary* Super Saiyan is motivated by a crying infant! He is a literal giant f***ing baby!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#21240: Jul 18th 2015 at 6:28:30 PM

That's not what I was using GT for. I was only using it for talking about Heroes' what ifs. If they gave GT Gohan a new form, then it wouldn't be out of character because he was already established as training before Heroes did anything.

And yes, it is kind of dumb to expect peace every time a threat is resolved. What many people are arguing is that he should simply learn from that, and it's a fairly simple what if to say "Gohan learned from previous experience" compared to other stuff Heroes put out.

Finally, I agree that Gohan would like nothing more than to not have to protect Earth. But being irrelevant doesn't accomplish that. Only having no more threats ever would accomplish that. The fact that he seemingly has no intention to become a God is the weird thing, because he really should want that if he wants to protect people.

[up][up] Because threats can come from nowhere, and he's seen first hand the repercussions of slacking off right before a new threat hits.

It's dumb because he wants to see his family safe but never takes any steps to improve their safety.

He is probably the only person who has both the capacity to be protect Earth and the righteousness to actually put Earth's safety first. That is a damn good reason to continue training, even if he doesn't enjoy it. It's called self-sacrifice, and I would think if he's such a good person he'd be capable of that.

"Fuck Earth, it's time to study" was Chi Chi's motto and it was meant to be ridiculous. Why is is suddenly the most sensible thing for Gohan to follow?

edited 18th Jul '15 6:31:53 PM by Saiga

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#21241: Jul 18th 2015 at 6:28:55 PM

[up][up][up]No one is saying that. It is kind of dumb that he thinks that after the latest threat is gone there's never going to be another one because his entire life has shown that to not be true but that probably has more to do with [up][up] than anything else.

edited 18th Jul '15 6:30:08 PM by LSBK

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#21242: Jul 18th 2015 at 6:33:38 PM

Ok, yea its more of a writing problem then. Gohan is not allowed to be stronger than Goku(or Vegeta), even tho he by all accounts should be and has just as much of a motivation to fight as them.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
LOLypop1224 ...what am I even DOING here? Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
...what am I even DOING here?
#21243: Jul 18th 2015 at 6:38:27 PM

Toriyama, this is what happens when you make a character do a complete 180 in the space of a few chapters! Gohan literally has no purpose anymore.

I think the only way to make Gohan relevant again is to take out Goku. At least temporarily. That way, you can have a reason as to why Gohan is outshining the supposed main character.

edited 18th Jul '15 6:39:03 PM by LOLypop1224

The *Legendary* Super Saiyan is motivated by a crying infant! He is a literal giant f***ing baby!
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#21244: Jul 18th 2015 at 6:39:19 PM

Goku entire thing Android Saga onwards is trying to pass on the role of the main Earth defender on the younger generation - first Gohan then Goten and Trunks. He only gives up on that post Buu saga when it's made apparent that it's not gonna work out. He then waits for Oob to show up.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#21245: Jul 18th 2015 at 6:40:18 PM

Yeah, they've written themselves into a real corner wanting Goku to be the strongest Saiyan again.

Either they have to retcon Gohan's potential - something that has been consistent since his first appearance - which would be extremely tacky (and almost mean-spirited) or they have to make him deliberately squander it.

They... seem to be doing both. Battle of Gods has Beerus talk about how Goku and Vegeta have amazing potential, completely ignoring Gohan. And Resurrection F strips him of his Ultimate form and says he's been neglecting his training again.

[up] And the problem with that is that the main reason things don't work out is because of circumstances rather than individual merit. It also makes for a really depressing aesop where Goku gives up on his sons and runs off with a stranger because he's that desperate to pass the torch despite being a really shitty savior to begin with.

edited 18th Jul '15 6:41:47 PM by Saiga

Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#21246: Jul 18th 2015 at 6:42:16 PM

You know what's going to be absolute hell? Deciding if Battle of Gods and Resurrection "F" are canon or if Super's version of those events are canon.

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#21247: Jul 18th 2015 at 6:44:07 PM

@Saiga Your overconfidence is your weakness.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#21248: Jul 18th 2015 at 6:44:43 PM

[up][up]Just go with the version that came later. It saves you a lot of headaches. Or you can do what Saiga does and go on about how there is no canon, which thinking about it, might work better.

edited 18th Jul '15 6:44:59 PM by LSBK

LOLypop1224 ...what am I even DOING here? Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
...what am I even DOING here?
#21249: Jul 18th 2015 at 6:46:55 PM

I've been wracking my brains, trying to work out how to make Gohan relevant again. But it seems like they just don't care about him anymore. I mean, I do, but maybe I'm the only one. Or a better way to put it is "only the hardcore fans care".

And I'm assuming Super is going to be canon. I mean, surely they're going to use those versions as references for when the new material starts.

edited 18th Jul '15 6:48:27 PM by LOLypop1224

The *Legendary* Super Saiyan is motivated by a crying infant! He is a literal giant f***ing baby!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#21250: Jul 18th 2015 at 6:47:54 PM

Trying to figure out what is canon in any franchise that doesn't openly declare it is hell.

I mean, it basically comes down to individual interpretation and there are going to be a lot of different interpretations that come from this.

[up][up] [nja] kind of embarrassing

The other stance I have on this is what really matters is what material will be considered when making new material. IE, there's not much chance Super will reference Broli or GT, but it has referenced the Boo arc, and is adapting Battle of Gods.

I think it's likely that Super's version of events will be used as the basis of any new content. However, the fact that they're readapting BoG and RF so soon probably means nothing is set in stone when dealing with new content.

[up] it's kind of a Broken Base issue. If you look in our DBZA thread, a number of people who probably wouldn't consider themselves hardcore fans have expressed a desire to see Gohan used better. On the other hand, there are a lot of hardcore fans who don't want Gohan to be used more, either out of dislike of him or because they prefer more Goku and Vegeta. I've seen people who have bought damn near every piece of merchandise they can afford swear they'll quite the franchise if Goku isn't the main character.

edited 18th Jul '15 6:52:31 PM by Saiga


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