Saiga: Okay that is a fair point.
Really King Kai's freaking out over Frieza is some pretty serious Early-Installment Weirdness. Didn't he fight Bojack and know about Buu? They're both far stronger than Frieza.
edited 31st Mar '13 5:04:56 PM by Kostya
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...and? We've already seen that Bulma and her father are incredible geniuses. Gero is even smarter than them, and worked on his Androids for years. Creating the infinite energy reactors didn't hurt, either. It's like going from the bomb to the atom bomb: technology can make huge leaps forward like that.
Bojack's a movie villain and he didn't know about Boo, Freeza really was the strongest in the Universe in the manga but the EU really fucks with that.
edited 31st Mar '13 5:06:22 PM by Saiga
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Point. I just remembered the scene where the observing muggles thought the Briefs created Porunga.
edited 31st Mar '13 5:07:39 PM by HamburgerTime
GT characters were weaker than table salt. It is not until the end of the series the writers seem to remember these guys are supposed to be portable death stars.
Not to mention painfully inconsistent. Super Saiyan 4 Goku at first flees from fire and lava but then can apparently go blow for blow with a guy producing heat hotter than the sun then a little ice on his hand is a problem. Not even special ice they bothered to give any informed attributes.
Based on what we see on screen Omega Shenron was not any stronger than Super Perfect Cell, the implications of continuity were just ignored and the characters got weaker is all.
Modified Ura-nage, Torture RackFor some reason I thought King Kai made a remark about hearing stories of Buu. If not then never mind. I can't remember the Buu saga very well.
Well when your villains are strong enough that they should be able to shatter planets with a single punch I can see how it might cause trouble. Really GT should have just not used any of the old characters except Pan and a few of the younger ones. By this point adults like Goku where too powerful for anything to be much of a threat while they could actually meet some challenging enemies out in space.
edited 31st Mar '13 5:13:04 PM by Kostya
Anyway if the summary is to be believed then after initial SSG runs out, Goku still retains power-up big enough that he's doing better against Bills in SSJ 1 than he did in SSJ 3 at the beginning.
SSJ 1 Goku vs Super buuhan anyone?
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By going solely by visual Cell is weaker than Freeza.
edited 31st Mar '13 5:13:02 PM by Shlugo_the_great
Um. No. We see base Goku beating up Super Perfect Cell, and you can't measure character's strength through "feats". A lot of what people say make GT characters look weak (struggling to hold up a building) are actually perfectly consistent (buildings are fucking heavy, and we know base Goku can't lift more than 40 tonnes in the Boo Arc).
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Not just Super Saiyan 1, but base as well.
edited 31st Mar '13 5:12:43 PM by Saiga
Shlugo: Cell never tried to blow up the planet or wreck shit for the hell of it. That might be why he appears weaker.
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It's consistent with what came before but it doesn't really make sense.
Goku is able to train in several hundred times Earth's gravity. His body alone should weigh more than 40 tons in that environment.
edited 31st Mar '13 5:16:12 PM by Kostya
No, it wouldn't.
Brief: “Huh!? You…you say you want me to make you a 300-times gravity room!?”
Vegeta: “That’s right. It seems that Kakarot trained in 100-times gravity…I’m at least 3 times as much as him…”
Brief: “Th…that’s crazy…Ve…Vegeta, if you weigh 60 kilos…then you’ll become eigh…18 tons….”\\
Goku would only be 6-8 tonnes in 100x gravity.
edited 31st Mar '13 5:18:50 PM by Saiga
Edit: I do not think Ton and Tonne are the same thing, where are you getting the 40 ton figure from anyway?
And do not even play. Cell and Gohan's battle was felt throughout the entire world without them attacking it directly. It was felt throughout space to new Planet Namek and Gohan blew caused Earthquakes on the other side of Earth just by powering up?
What is that you say? Filler? The entire super seventeen arc was only possible through filler so it counts. Omega Shenron was no stronger than Super Perfect Cell based on what we saw, the characters just got weaker because TOEI did not know the series it was drawing.
For the record, there is no struggle to lift a building, the actual scene was much much stupider. Omega Shenron kicks Goku and Vegeta into a building. It falls down. He does it again, it does not fall down. He stands their wondering why it did not fall like the other. Goku and Vegeta are on opposite corners of the building and Goku says they should attack Omega Shenron since he was not moving and Vegeta says if they move the building will fall down.
They were not struggling at all, they were merely acknowledging basic geometry (emphasis on basic as the Square-Cube Law says it should have fallen anyway). With little effort Goku pushed a mountain in half during his fight with Kid Buu, that is tons in billions (physical impossibility aside, Kai worlds are supposed to be "denser" than Earth so the approximate estimate might be too low). Wait wait, filler? Again, this is GT. Entire plot points were only possible because of filler. TOEI did not know the story it was animating. Anyway, Goku stopped mountainous land formations, moon destroying blasts and planet busters with his hands in Manga continuity anyway.
edited 31st Mar '13 5:42:19 PM by Cider
Modified Ura-nage, Torture RackWhen Goku is training in the afterlife, Kaio is trying to impress another Kaio and puts 40 tonnes of wait on Goku, who can't move. Kaio says he can go Super Saiyan and he does so and can move again.
And no, you're entire argument is just 100% horseshit. First of all Omega Shenron's existence threatened to destroy the entire Universe. That right there puts him way above everything else in the series. You're saying inconsistencies in scale trump in-universe facts, and that's crap.
Judging DB characters by feats doesn't work. Powerscaling is what matters and that applies to GT too.
Majin Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta was gajillions of times stronger than base Freeza who could blow up a planet. Releasing all his energy did nothing but leave a big crater. It didn't so much as destroy an island-sized land mass.
Full Power Super Saiyan Goku only could have potentially destroye d the Earth with his strongest attack when he logically should be sinking continents with finger blasts.
And need we go over 21st Tournament Roshi blowing up the Moon? That is the most ridiculous feat in the series. A vastly stronger character in King Piccolo only had nuke-level firepower with his absolute strongest attack.
So yeah, GT has many feults, but inconsistent displays of power is not one of them.
In fact one thing I recall being impressed by was Super 17 reacting to Goku's Instant Transmission. He and Broly are the only characters who might even be remotely lightspeed.
And of course the Universal Spirit Bomb is the most powerful attack ever seen in DB, Z or GT. It's god knows how many times stronger than an attack that finished Buu.
Yeah, I find it unlikely that any villain is stronger than Omega Shenron.
Also, I'm under the impression that by the point of GT, Goku is probably as strong in his base form as he was when he fought Buu as a Super Saiyan 3, hence being able to bash some heads in even in base form. 15 straight years of training will do that to you. Which makes SSJ 4 and its multiplier positively frightening.
You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!Yes, yes. I remember that scene in the Cartoon, I do not remember it in the comic at all. I remember Goku not being able to be wished for with the dragon balls and then him using his one day in the living for the tournament/Budokai.
So I see it as filler contradicted by other filler and the very comic itself as Goku already had better feats. As for Omega Shenron, I do not recall him doing anything more than covering Earth with darkness, which is impressive on a scale level but nothing particularly damaging. Vegeta unleashed attacks that only took seconds to escape to the solar system that still were not good enough to kill Cell or a Cell Jr! Gohan and Cell's struggle was visible in space and felt throughout it to distant planets Goku could not even teleport to. You know, Show, Don't Tell. Even Super Buu's temper tantrum against Vegeta actually looked and felt like something that could have severe consequences.
Modified Ura-nage, Torture RackReading a few things, it seems that Cooler's Revenge has the characters being a lot more powerful than they should be. I think one of you said that none of the characters can move at light speed, and that destroying the sun was impressive. Cooler casually talks about blowing up the sun and Goku launches him from Earth to the sun in under a minute, when it takes over eight minutes for light to travel from the sun to Earth, about 93 million miles.
And I guess Buu is a universe buster too...
kind of makes me wonder about that Death Battle episode.
edited 31st Mar '13 6:04:30 PM by CPFMfan
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edited 31st Mar '13 5:04:47 PM by HamburgerTime