TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Dragon Ball

Go To

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#89801: Nov 15th 2018 at 4:58:19 PM

Video essays is a format that.

Like, some people honestly do get it right? Games as lit, Lindsay Ellis (like, especially her,), and a few others come to mind.

But there's a delicate blend there of structure and format and visual composition and scripting and editing that so few get right and it almost always comes out so bad and I just hate it so fucking much.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#89802: Nov 15th 2018 at 4:59:19 PM

There are subjective highs as well as objective highs, just like there are subjective and objective lows.

Just saying that doesn't make it true.

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#89803: Nov 15th 2018 at 5:01:20 PM

I mean. "Taste is subjective, quality less so" is a thing I've seen thrown around in the art criticism world.

(Note, "less so" implying degrees.)

Somethings are technically skilled and proficient and deft, and that can be analyzed "objectively".

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#89804: Nov 15th 2018 at 5:02:17 PM

I agree with that. Many of Pushover's complaints go well past that though.

Edited by LSBK on Nov 15th 2018 at 7:02:33 AM

Kamiccolo Since: May, 2018
#89805: Nov 15th 2018 at 5:03:30 PM

See, it's jokes like that that foster the dangerous idea that media should never be seriously criticized because it's all just opinions
Alright, then Toei's writing is objective garbage. The hate for the manga compared to the anime is as far as I'm concerned a sign of extremely bad taste.

See how that works?

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#89806: Nov 15th 2018 at 5:03:33 PM

[up]x5 Totally Not Mark is good at these. I wouldn't bother posting the videos if he was bad.

[up]x4 Trust me, I'm studying this shit in college. The idea that media cannot be objectively criticized is laughable within the industry, and only pretentious douche-nozzles who want to pretend their garbage films are gold buy into the idea. Dropping the idea that all media criticism is subjective is literally one of the first things they teach you.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Nov 15th 2018 at 6:04:18 AM

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#89807: Nov 15th 2018 at 5:03:49 PM

If he ever toned it down, maybe some of us would be willing to listen to him.

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#89808: Nov 15th 2018 at 5:05:12 PM

For me, the biggest appeal of the manga honestly is that I can read a manga a lot faster and easier than I can watch an anime, especially one with Dragon Ball's infamous pacing, and I'm an adult, and a parent, and I have a job, and I have shit to do.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#89809: Nov 15th 2018 at 5:05:44 PM

[up][up]Here's an idea: shut up and watch the fuckin' video before you start shit-talking me just because I wanted to share something I enjoyed and related to from a creator I enjoy and support.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Nov 15th 2018 at 6:06:06 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#89810: Nov 15th 2018 at 5:06:06 PM

I rather actually learned some stuff about fight composition & paneling in that video.

Interesting stuff, never realized it before.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#89811: Nov 15th 2018 at 5:08:28 PM

...I suppose there's a thing where. I can control how I read a manga? Whereas an anime is always going forward. At a set pace.

I can skip to a panel if I need or want to. I can sorta "skim" it.

I dunno.

This is a change in, like, my physiology that I'm not entirely sure I like but. It's also definitely a thing.

Kamiccolo Since: May, 2018
#89812: Nov 15th 2018 at 5:09:14 PM

Trust me, I'm studying this shit in college
Meaningless without empirics.

[up]Ditto. I really like that feeling, it's the same reason I usually prefer books.

Edited by Kamiccolo on Nov 15th 2018 at 5:14:12 AM

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#89813: Nov 15th 2018 at 5:11:43 PM

[up][up][up][up]

Be cool there man. We don't want this to get too heated.

Honestly, having thrown up my hands on both versions (both have things I like, though I might prefer the spectacle of the anime more), I think it's stupid to try and claim one is worse.

I say, they should have given the manga time to establish itself so they had material to follow, while asking Toriyama about future details so they could fill in any gaps without contradicting things later.

But Toei cared more about money, and Toriyama is still writing by the seat of his pants even when he's not working on a weekly schedule, so here we are: two versions of the same story that are radically different in too many ways.

Edited by HandsomeRob on Nov 15th 2018 at 6:15:58 AM

One Strip! One Strip!
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#89814: Nov 15th 2018 at 5:14:48 PM

Pretty sure this is getting a wee-bit personal.

By the way is it healthy to have been up since 4 this morning?

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#89815: Nov 15th 2018 at 5:37:34 PM

I've been up for longer than I should, so that might be a factor in my irritation. I apologize.

For those still refusing to watch the videos: they're 12 and 11 minutes long, it's not that much of a commitment. The start of the first video is actually defending Toyotaro, referring to reasons he's not that bad. This is because the first video came out in the midst of the Captain America Tracing scandel. Both videos have a generally hopeful tone, and it's focused more on "what the manga needs to improve" over "what the manga's doing wrong", although it doesn't pull punches on what it is doing wrong. The second video also ends on an uplifting note of hope to all comic writers out there to learn from the videos and not replicate the mistakes mentioned in them.

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#89816: Nov 15th 2018 at 5:46:59 PM

I wouldn't bother posting the videos if he was bad.

something I enjoyed and related to from a creator I enjoy and support

So, I trust and respect you and your judgment, so I knuckled down and watched the videos, and hey my kid didn't seem to get into trouble or harm in those 26 minutes so that's a good thing.

Anyway. Like, I think he's right? About all the composition and panel stuff.

I still don't know why it has to be a video, and I don't think a video is actually the best format for any of his points though.

...The only part of either video where I thought it had to be a video because it wouldn't work in another format is the "keep things brief *shows a picture of Dr. Brief onscreen*" pun/gag.

Like, especially when he edits manga panels to construct his own, better paced manga pages? Fundamentally, that does not work in a video format. "Objectively". What it needs is a format where the. Consumer. Can compare and contrast the two pages on their own terms, in their own time. Like, an essay, in HTML on a blog or, something, where you can show the two pages, original and edited, side-by-side, before-and-after, compare-and-contrast.

Having to be a video hurt the message. Pretty badly, actually.

Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#89817: Nov 15th 2018 at 6:04:02 PM

(Keep in mind that PMC has aknowledged he is in the autist spectrum, and thus plenty of his actions may be explained, yet not justified, by that fact.)

For the record, being linked to a 26 minute video and a wall of text defending his opinions, while at the same time being unwilling to concede subjectivity and disregarding criticism of his favored version, is a double standard. Those are not okay.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#89818: Nov 15th 2018 at 6:04:07 PM

Some people just prefer talking their points...in vidya forum.

Edited by randomness4 on Nov 15th 2018 at 6:04:39 AM

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#89819: Nov 15th 2018 at 6:05:59 PM

I read faster than most people talk. Expositive classes without any kind of textbook have always been exhausting to me.

Youtuber culture is something I just cannot work with.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#89820: Nov 15th 2018 at 6:09:13 PM

[up][up][up][up]Those are some good points, but Totally Not Mark hit his stride making Youtube Top 10 lists of the best/worst animated moments in various arcs of Dragon Ball Super. Youtube is the medium he has chosen to use, and it's the one he's become famous on, so that's the medium he has to work with.

I really enjoy his voice and delivery, and I think there are some benefits to the medium he chose for these videos in particular. For example, if it was a written essay with pictures, the reader would have to scroll back up to the picture in question anytime he wanted to reference it, such as the edited comic pages being compared. In a video essay, he can talk about the images as long as he wants while they're on screen.

I do prefer to hear the information to learn it best. I'm equal parts a visual and audio learner, so video essays and movies are fantastic for me.

Totally Not Mark is interesting because he's one of the newest "DBTubers" on Youtube, getting his start well after Dragon Ball Super started, and his channel's growth has been very impressive. I've been following him from the single-digit thousands of subcribers to the 134K he has now, and that was only in the course of a year or two.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Nov 15th 2018 at 7:11:51 AM

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#89821: Nov 15th 2018 at 6:09:37 PM

I mean, videos can be a useful tool, and I do use them in classes. Animations of things like cells and organs can be supremely helpful.

But they're a tool. They aren't useful for all situations and all information, and not all brands or manufacturing processes are created equally. Some are the finest craftsmanship, some come from the 10 cent dealer in the shady backalley behind a dollar store, with all their wares held,together with gum and covered in what you hope is blood.

Not very good for house repair.

...This metaphor got weird, but all my metaphors do.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#89822: Nov 15th 2018 at 6:11:46 PM

I have nothing against Youtubers. I've watched the content of several Youtubers over the years and I've enjoyed their talks about games, anime and manga, the people behind these mediums, etc. That video about panel composition is one I've seen before, so I have nothing against his content either.

Edited by VeryMelon on Nov 17th 2018 at 9:18:11 AM

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#89823: Nov 15th 2018 at 6:12:44 PM

[up][up][up][up]I can jive with either...straight text without good formatting doesn't jive with my eyes though, so I tend to prefer videos.

If interesting enough anyway.

Edited by randomness4 on Nov 15th 2018 at 6:13:24 AM

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#89825: Nov 15th 2018 at 6:14:25 PM

That is the honest truth.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.

Total posts: 130,800
Top