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Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#88751: Oct 23rd 2018 at 12:55:12 PM

It'd be more fitting to say Goku belongs in the autistic spectrum to a degree: utterly devoted to a particular topic, utterly clueless from a social standpoint, yet not malicious. He cares about people but is unable to naturally put himself on their shoes.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#88752: Oct 23rd 2018 at 12:57:10 PM

He really was the runt of the litter.

In more ways than one.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#88753: Oct 23rd 2018 at 1:10:43 PM

I understand that the anime (especially the dub) went overboard in making Goku a "hero", but I also think that Kamiccolo is taking for granted that what authors say they want, and what they actually do, don't always align.

The argument that Goku actually just wanted to stay dead, but instead of just saying that, felt like coming up with a semi-plausible excuse doesn't strike me as particularly convincing either. Just because you can poke holes in something doesn't mean it wasn't supposed to be taken at face value.

Honestly, I'd say that Toriyama might have been trying to have things both ways - a "poisonous" hero that might not be a good guy, but also wanted to do legit emotional moments and such.

Edited by LSBK on Oct 23rd 2018 at 1:18:21 PM

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#88754: Oct 23rd 2018 at 1:59:19 PM

[up] I definitely agree with that.

I also think that Goku's portrayal in Super is due to trying to overcompensate for the Z anime making him too heroic. He seems more oblivious and selfish than later arcs of DB presented him as.

Towards the end of DB he had a lot more awareness than he originally did - he knew what a kiss was, he knew how to manipulate Old Kaioshin - which seems to be ignored by Super.

And you can't throw shade at Goku for not being present for Goten's birth. He's DEAD. Even if he did know about that - when he explicitly did not - is that really the best use of his one day visit? That way Goten would never actually meet him, cause he'd be a newborn.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#88755: Oct 23rd 2018 at 2:17:09 PM

Yeah.

Toriyama went way too far in the other direction with how he wanted Goku portrayed. Super Goku isn't a Goku I want to see more of.

One Strip! One Strip!
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#88756: Oct 23rd 2018 at 3:04:49 PM

I seem to remember there being a lot of instances in the 10 days before the Cell Games where Goku seemingly tries to spend time with Chi-Chi, sending Gohan out of the house to do errands or have adventures or go play with Dende and Piccolo on the Lookout or hangout with Krillin or whatever.

...Maybe some of that was filler, I don't remember.

Part of the plan for those ten days was 3 days of rest, 3 days of training, then 3 more days of rest.

...Or the other way around?

And to be Super Saiyan the whole time.

It's not confirmed that those 10 days were when Goten was conceived, but considering if it was too much before then they would have noticed or mentioned it at some probably or maybe, and considering, and considering Goten was 100% definitely born by the end of that year, and the Cell Games are in May, and considering how amusing the concept of a week straight of Super Saiyan fucking is to me.

Edited by unnoun on Oct 23rd 2018 at 6:06:07 AM

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#88757: Oct 23rd 2018 at 3:27:07 PM

Wait wouldn't that only leave 7 months for the pregnancy term?

firewriter Since: Dec, 2016
#88758: Oct 23rd 2018 at 3:29:14 PM

While I understand Toriyama didn't want to make him too much of a goody hero, on the other hand I do think he should dial down his more obnoxious traits because there has to be some middle ground.

Kamiccolo Since: May, 2018
#88759: Oct 23rd 2018 at 3:31:21 PM

The argument that Goku actually just wanted to stay dead, but instead of just saying that felt like coming up with a semi-plausible excuse doesn't strike me as particularly convincing either.
It's just a fact. If he had been dead when Raditz, Vegeta, Freeza, Gero, and Cell arrived on Earth, nothing at all would have changed. Except Earth would have its defenses compromised (this is in fact the whole point of Trunks' future; Goku being dead just gave the villains an easier time, they were still going to wreck shit anyway). Goku cannot possibly be dumb enough not to know this. Logically, then, he's just making up an excuse; which Super and Toriyama support by outright stating he doesn't care about his family at all when there's training to do.
And you can't throw shade at Goku for not being present for Goten's birth. He's DEAD.
Death has no consequence for Goku. He can get wished back whenever he wants.
Wait wouldn't that only leave 7 months for the pregnancy term?
Maybe he was premature and that's why he's so tiny.

Edited by Kamiccolo on Oct 23rd 2018 at 3:33:34 AM

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#88760: Oct 23rd 2018 at 3:35:35 PM

[up]You're missing the point. You're saying "Goku can't be dumb enough", but there are a fair number of things in Dragon Ball (or fiction in general) where you could go "But, wait couldn't..." but the story still treats it as right, because that's what the author wants.

That you can pick something apart does not mean the author is secretly implying something about the characters motivations, it can just mean the author wants it to work, and so they go with it. As evidence by the fact that none of the characters dispute Goku's logic. They don't do so, because we're supposed to consider him correct.

Edited by LSBK on Oct 23rd 2018 at 5:39:29 AM

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#88761: Oct 23rd 2018 at 3:48:18 PM

Wait wouldn't that only leave 7 months for the pregnancy term?

I mean, that's been the assumption?

Like, Chichi doesn't seem 2 months pregnant in the Androids/Cell Saga. And it's not referenced at any point. Around that point she'd have missed a period or something.

Also, everyone can sense ki. Which even rocks and trees have supposedly. Probably bacteria.

Edited by unnoun on Oct 23rd 2018 at 6:51:57 AM

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#88762: Oct 23rd 2018 at 3:50:41 PM

Well, while seven months isn't ideal, babies are generally considered developed enough to be delivered relatively safely.

And Goten is half-Saiyan, so who knows if that factors into things.

Edited by LSBK on Oct 23rd 2018 at 5:56:53 AM

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#88763: Oct 23rd 2018 at 3:56:10 PM

For me, the real question is, at what age or stage of development does Goten become bulletproof?

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#88764: Oct 23rd 2018 at 4:31:50 PM

When is the start of the Buu Saga? Because it's possible Goten was born after new years but had his 7th birthday relatively recently when the Buu Saga began.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#88765: Oct 23rd 2018 at 4:36:22 PM

Also, everyone can sense ki. Which even rocks and trees have supposedly. Probably bacteria.

Videl wasn't showing but she did know she was pregnant, and Dende was only able to sense Pan inside her once he was actually touching her. The "rocks and trees having ki" thing is specifically referring to Genki, which is only a part of normal ki. According to what research I've done on Genki, it is based on a real concept, and it's basically "the basic energy at the center of everything". I choose to interpret that as Genki basically being heat energy itself.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#88766: Oct 23rd 2018 at 5:14:08 PM

@Kamiccolo Goku's logic could be faulty without him deliberately lying or making excuses - and the fact that he's not very responsible can be used as a reasonable argument that Earth is better off without him.

And he can be resurrected at any time, but that doesn't mean he has to be. Nobody thinks Grandpa Gohan was an asshole for turning down resurrection.

The characters have always treated death as holding more weight than the fans do.

Edited by Saiga on Oct 23rd 2018 at 10:15:49 PM

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#88767: Oct 23rd 2018 at 5:21:13 PM

It does hold weight...because they don't just have the Dragon Balls propped and ready everytime a new villain is around the curb.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Kamiccolo Since: May, 2018
#88768: Oct 23rd 2018 at 5:39:50 PM

Goku's logic could be faulty without him deliberately lying or making excuses - and the fact that he's not very responsible can be used as a reasonable argument that Earth is better off without him.
Then that just proves the point that he's terrible. But really, since that's not an argument he nor anyone else ever makes, I doubt it. He just uses the excuse of "I attract villains" which any eight year old can realize is wrong since the entire arc was focused around a timeline where Goku stayed dead and the villains destroyed it anyway. He quickly revealed the real reason he wanted to stay dead: to fight powerful fighters and train in the Afterlife. And according to the author himself, that's literally the only thing he cares about.
You're missing the point. You're saying "Goku can't be dumb enough", but there are a fair number of things in Dragon Ball (or fiction in general) where you could go "But, wait couldn't..." but the story still treats it as right, because that's what the author wants.
If you want to invoke the author's intention, Toriyama has outright said repeatedly that Goku has no interest in his family and wants nothing other than to get stronger.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#88769: Oct 23rd 2018 at 5:44:42 PM

Oh no...the evil that was made to kill Karrot was unleashed and destroyed the world anyway.

That literally means nothing to the logic used.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#88770: Oct 23rd 2018 at 5:45:43 PM

I mean, Pilaf did release Piccolo because Goku kept thwarting him. Raditz came to Earth to find Goku. Nappa and Vegeta came to Earth because Goku and Piccolo killed Raditz and Piccolo told Raditz about the Dragon Balls. Freeza only came to Earth because Goku beat him up. The Androids and Cell only attacked because Goku beat up the Red Ribbon Army.

All of these are indisputable facts. While there is more context surrounding them that would make for a counter-argument, if Goku were just looking at these broad facts, they would lead him to the logical conclusion that he is a magnet for disaster.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Oct 23rd 2018 at 5:46:55 AM

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#88771: Oct 23rd 2018 at 5:47:33 PM

The point being that being an "excuse" is never brought up. You talk of Goku not being dumb enough to believe that, but you believe everyone else apparently is? But it just never came up again? We're never given a reason in story to not take his reasoning at face value, so we take it at face value.

For another example, take what happens in the Buu saga for the period everyone thinks that Gohan is dead - it makes no sense for them to think that because Gohan "died" after they had used Shenron to revive all the people killed by Babidi and Buu or whatever, but they still assume that Gohan is dead because they don't sense him. Logic would dictate something else was going on, especially since they knew that Gohan was with the Supreme Kai (who even if they thought was killed, should have also been revived) but they don't.

That the characters reasoning don't actually make sense doesn't mean we're supposed to think they're actually thinking something else. It just means that Toriyama wanted them to believe Gohan was dead despite how little sense it made, and so they did.

Which is the entire point of saying just because the author says something, doesn't mean what he wrote actually matches up with it, at least not all the time.

Edited by LSBK on Oct 23rd 2018 at 7:50:56 AM

fasoman1996 Google "big ears" from Argentina (A.K.A. Naziland) Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
Google "big ears"
#88772: Oct 23rd 2018 at 5:59:10 PM

Only DBZ villain who didn't have any connection with Goku was Buu.

Ironically, he is the only one Goku gets to kill.

Uni cat
Hobgoblin Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#88773: Oct 23rd 2018 at 6:02:13 PM

Remember when Raditz kidnaps Gohan, kicks Goku and Piccolo's asses, and then mentions there are two Saiyans more powerful than him? Piccolo says he expects Goku is excited at the news, but Goku is terrified at the prospect.

Super Goku would probably be salivating at the prospect.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#88774: Oct 23rd 2018 at 6:05:20 PM

Goku's character really has become a mess.

Its just contradiction after contradiction.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#88775: Oct 23rd 2018 at 6:07:01 PM

He's stronger...so that doesn't contradict anything.

It aligns with how he was acting from Namek saga onward.

Edited by randomness4 on Oct 23rd 2018 at 6:07:47 AM

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.

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