Black existing makes everything since 17 and 18 pointless, though.
At the very least, Trunks can avenge those people. Can stop Black Zamasu from spreading to more timelines. Can hold the line.
I mean, that's fair? Kinda.
But I'm not saying it has to be offscreen.
Maybe show a cutaway or flashback of Zamasu and/or Black, irritated and bored because Trunks was gone, and to Black's Saiyan blood, Trunks was the only thing that made things interesting.
...Although, given Black and Zamasu presumably killed that timeline's version of Jiren already. In hindsight that doesn't make sense. Future Trunks stacks way below that kind of fun.
Then again, Trunks might be more funny to kick around. Jiren doesn't have a lot of personality. Not as fun to torture.
Probably can't afford to either.
You'd need Zamasu's immortal bullshit ass to take the beating from Jiren, so he can tire himself out, while Black takes potshots to wear him down.
I mean, this makes sense for Black because of his Saiyan blood making him crave a good fight.
But with Future Trunks gone. He'd have nothing left to delay him.
Edited by unnoun on Oct 21st 2018 at 3:08:12 PM
At the very least, Trunks can avenge those people. Can stop Black Zamasu from spreading to more timelines. Can hold the line.
That, I can agree with. That's what should have happened.
....wait...
How the hell did they kill Jiren? That doesn't make sense, especially from the manga version of Black who couldn't even go Rose until much later in the arc.
Even the anime Version didn't achieve Rose until after he fought Goku, and we all know that wouldn't anywhere near enough considering how Blue Goku faired against him.
Something is rotten in DB country.
One Strip! One Strip!So Chapter 41 was much better than the previous couple of chapters. It's nice that we finally got Jiren's wish and the name of his master as it clears up his motivation a bit. I also like how it tones down how much of an asshole he is, because there was really no reason for that and I feel it was mostly done in the Anime to get us to see Jiren as "A bad guy".
Mastered Ultra Instinct I guess is treated as a technique here rather than a Saiyan exclusive transformation, but the result is the same. The battle feels more or less the same as the Anime, but Jiren actually is able to keep up with MUI and Goku is tiring himself out because he's not used to his new power
I suppose it was nice to see a culmination of Whis telling Goku and Vegeta they need to work together, as well as it being Vegeta to make that suggestion since he's always opposed to working with Goku and is generally forced into doing it.
I am wondering how 17 & Freeza are going to factor into this though; I'm assuming Vegeta gets eliminated next month and 17 & Freeza come in to pick up the slack, Goku & Freeza get the "Uncoordinated attacks work against Jiren" moment because he's too tired to actually keep up and that's how he's overwhelmed.
A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.Even the anime Version didn't achieve Rose until after he fought Goku, and we all know that wouldn't anywhere near enough considering how Blue Goku faired against him.
Something is rotten in DB country.
I mean, I could swear it's mentioned that Earth is the last world on Black's little roadtrip in the Future Trunks timeline, and they explicitly killed all 12 Supreme Kai and Gods of Destruction, which has to include Vermoud and Cae, who lead the Pride Troopers.
So.
Maybe I'm making some assumptions there, but I feel like they all check out.
...Like, maybe the version of Jiren in Future Trunks's timeline is weaker? Same way as his timeline's version of 17 and 18 are weaker?
The timelines change some weird things sometimes apparently.
Stem-apes had tails, and there are tailless monkeys. Saiyans also display a vertical spine and a free-rotating shoulder joint, which are crown-ape characters never seen outside said group (you can see tailless non-ape monkeys, but never orthograde, brachiating non-ape monkeys). They also exhibit the full set of Homo sapiens-specific characters, so ape wouldn't be inaccurate.
Also, about the Potara: Vegetto defusing inside Buu just because was bullshit you only accepted because it happened when you were 20 years younger, and now we got an explanation why. The earrings already worked differently with Kais than with mortals back then anyway (Kibitoshin was Shin with long hair in terms of character, Vegetto was more similar to Gotenks).
Oh, and "the same but better"? Instant movement in Instant transmission but better!
So yeah, I blame being 20 years older, rather than this turn of events being worse than the original events in the Buu saga.
Just because they're both bullshit doesn't mean they're equally bullshit.
Saiga is allowed to complain that the humans should be irrelevant because power levels not being everything contradicts the original manga.
The potara not being permanent contradicts the original manga.
I mean. Not as Oozaru they don't.
As far as I can tell, Saiga's point has never been "power levels are everything", it's more "power levels aren't irrelevant, and whenever Super attempted to paint them as such, it always failed terribly in execution."
I don't think Saiga has ever objected to the idea that a fight between relative equals could come down to luck/skill/planning/whatever.
Edited by LSBK on Oct 21st 2018 at 4:44:46 AM
Fights between equals in DB are pretty rare.
Most of those fights were with Goku:
Vs Roshi and Tien in his case, and then later on Vegeta (though only at Super Saiyan 2, and only because he held back purposely).
Piccolo vs 17 is the only other fight where the two were well matched.
Edit: Wait. I got it. First, the quote:
I don't think Saiga has ever objected to the idea that a fight between relative equals could come down to luck/skill/planning/whatever.
While it is true that that's always been Saiga's point, and he's not wrong, I realize the problem is that the series doesn't always demonstrate this well.
In the end, a vast majority of battles are won via the other guy just being vastly, insurmountably stronger. While power is important, I don't think the series demonstrates very well that other things besides power are vital. Sure it has done so at times (Goku has on occasion outsmarted enemies, and his ability to quickly figure out how certain techniques work and even instantly copy them if possible is a big part of his talent as a fighter), but most of the time, a fight is won by just powering up beyond the level the other guy is at.
What I feel is that Dragonball doesn't do a good job of showing that power isn't just having a higher level of Ki. It's there, because how you use it and how quickly it gets used up has played a role in a few battles (Freeza's stamina issues for instance), but it gets buried under the earth shattering battles and powering up until everyone on the planet can feel it.
...Bah, no matter how I try to put it, it doesn't come out right. Does anyone get where I'm coming from here? I feel like I'm just talking out of my ass.
Edited by HandsomeRob on Oct 21st 2018 at 1:44:49 PM
One Strip! One Strip!Oozaru have the build of a tailed ape, not of a monkey.
Monkeys don't knuckle-walk. Monkeys have horizontal spines rather than sloping or vertical ones. Monkeys cannot bring their arms above their heads because their shoulder joints aren't adapted to brachiation. Monkeys don't have arms longer than their legs.
Oozaru have chimp bodies. Still full set of ape characters, just no longer the Homo sapiens ones.
This is not a monkey posture.
◊
Apes are ancestrally bipedal, or at least adapted to a posture involving a vertical spine, in contrast with the horizontal monkey posture and subsequent quadrupedality.
(And I've been in plenty of those debates; don't worry, it'll never be as obtuse as paleoanthropologists forgetting zoology exists and also deals with their area of study.)
Edited by Eriorguez on Oct 21st 2018 at 10:41:43 AM
Like. Neither version is perfect, and I find I most disagree with the idea that one is all good and the other all bad. There's bits I like of both.
...And bits I dislike of both, specifically the fucking Potara retcon in particular.
But still.
I think future materials will always follow from the anime, but will use ideas from the manga. The anime will probably always stay ahead of the manga, which will make the events more new and exciting, plus they would want to adapt stuff from the anime as soon as fans are aware of it rather than wait for the manga to cover it.
I don't think anyone really finds either versiom all good/all bad, though. I prefer the manga but I don't know if I'd even call it good. Plus, both versions still follow Toriyama's outline which is where some of the most contentious plot points come from.
On the potara retcon: I hate it, but I don't think it was there for Vegetto fanservice. Toyotarou and Toriyama spoke recently about the plans for the Black arc, and how Vegetto originally wasn't in it. Goku and Vegeta would team up against fused Zamasu, who had the time limit as a way for him to be defeated. After that Toyotarou suggested using fusion to 'meet the fans' expectations' and he was added in.
Retconning potara just to use Vegetto is an awful idea. But it's nuch more understandable to think 'if it's already retconned, we can use Vegetto' - it'd be kind of dumb to leave him out in that scenario, actually.
There's also a chance that this planning took place after Toei already used Vegetto (because there was a biiig gap between the two) and the idea for Vegetto and the time limit retcon came from there (thus, Toyotarou also wanted to include Vegetto as fans would expect it). That's not clear though, just how I've seen others interpret it.
On Black killing the gods - the manga specifically mentions that he killed the Kaioshin only, and it doesn't say he killed all mortals so Jiren and Toppo were probably left alive but stuck in their universe.
It shouldn't need to. That's not what the series is about.
Edited by Saiga on Oct 21st 2018 at 7:14:33 PM
Chapter 41 was better than the previous 4, but Toyotaro's manga as a whole is still pretty awful. Toyotaro has a habit of making characters forget things they've already experienced just for some forced character development. Like Goku all-of-a-sudden forgetting and remembering his martial arts teachings over the year and making him look like a novice compared to Roshi (even though since Early DB showcased Goku as a martial arts genius, and that as a saiyan he should naturally master any style of combat he sees and experiences). I wouldn't call Vegeta suggesting he and Goku should work together character development either, since any hang-ups Vegeta had over working with Goku should have died after the Buu saga. I don't recall any arguments between the 2 in the anime version over working together to fight Goku Black or Jiren in ep.123.
Neither the Super anime nor GT are particularly great, but both of them are objectively superior to Toyotaro's manga in nearly every category.
It is easy to forget he probably targeted the kaioshin only (since that's a twofer deal via also taking out the Gods of Destruction). As for Jiren, it would make sense, though I got the impression they killed every mortal in every universe in that timeline before they came to Trunks'. Just leaving Jiren and Toppo there wouldn't be good enough. They'd have to deal with those two eventually if they wanted to really complete the Zero Mortals plan.
One Strip! One Strip!Do Jiren and Toppo have to eat?
Zamasu in the manga describes earthworms as worthless, so.
Presumably he could starve them out.
wait what
But! But the retcons makes even less sense for Fused Zamasu because of Elder Kai and that witch!
Edited by unnoun on Oct 21st 2018 at 6:03:27 AM
Is the time limit applying to Fused Zamasu an actual thing? Even though Zamasu is a Kai?
What the actual shit?
Like. How do they explain the retcon? Why did Elder Kai think it was permanent?
Why did Kibitoshin need to wish on Porunga to separate?
Is it like the Tournament of Power or Namek, where one hour lasts 5 years?
Did the wish on Porunga just coincedentally just happen at the same time as the timer ran out? Four or five years after they put the earrings on?
Edited by unnoun on Oct 21st 2018 at 6:13:04 AM
Because it is only permanent for Kaioshin, for appointed Gods of Creation. A God of Creation can pretty much absorb into themselves a lesser being, and get access to their powers. However, having mortals combine into one, without a Kai being involved in the process, wouldn't really be considered (after all, Goku and co. have been a walking sacrilege since the Buu saga). Turns out, when mortals use Potara to fuse, no one is absorbed into other, and a temporary new combined being, similar to metamoran fusion, appears.
Zamasu was never officially appointed as a God of Creation. He was a mere pretender who named himself "God". Hence he is just a "mere" fusion upon merging, rather than an empowered God.
To be honest, the best way I could see that being worked into Vegetto vs Merged Zamasu would be this:
Vegetto utterly dominates Zamasu for the whole hour but fails to kill him due to immortality, so he goes "welp, once this is over I just have to kill Black, Trunks can handle Zamasu"; but, once Zamasu's fusion runs out, it pans out the way it did in the manga, with each Fuseé becoming a copy of Merged Zamasu, and Vegetto has to go "well, fuck me" as he realices he can't win despite being stronger, and will defuse soon, with Goku and Vegeta not being able to stand up to the growing army of Zamasus.
The manga contradicts itself when it comes to Zamasu's status as an official Kaioshin. It gives Fused Zamasu a time limit because neither of the people involved are official Kaioshin because that's how the Potara work now, but it also has Zamasu using the Time Rings to time travel, despite making it clear that only official Kaioshin can use the Time Rings.

It's much harder to argue with that than I thought it'd be.
Well, on the one hand, it gives a face to everything Trunks is fighting for, despite him losing his mom. At the very least, he can save these people. It shows that he hasn't failed yet. On the other hand, then Zamasu just says Lol!Nope! and kills them all in one go, rendering that effort totally pointless.
In the manga, Double Zamasu just kills the last of the humans barring Trunks offscreen, and while you are right that that makes sense since that's his goal and he shouldn't be screwing around (even if almost all DB Villains had a bad habit of being sadists who deliberately tend to make people suffer because they can), it also is kinda...well yeah, humans just aren't important in Dragonball, and haven't been since the Saiyan arc, with Earth itself being inconsequential in every way except as a battle ground, but it seems kind mean that the people being wiped out by Black and Zamasu are so irrelevant that we never even see them. These are the people that Trunks is fighting to save, and to have them just die offscreen seems disingenuous.
On another thought, I was thinking about the Bulma vs Gero video I put up a while back, and it dawned on me that in a hypothetical world where Goku never appeared on Earth, that once the Red Ribbon army decided to really get serious and take over the world (as in once they dethroned Pilaf and after Red wished himself taller), they'd have probably annexed Capsule corp, maybe even forcing Bulma and her family to work for them.
So we'd have Gero and Bulma working together potentially. Now that would have made for some powerful Earth tech. Who knows, maybe they'd be strong enough to ward off freeza's, and even the big guy himself.
One Strip! One Strip!