I wasn't saying "it's cool because it's an underdog story", I was saying "it would've been cool, and also an underdog story". These types of story cliches are popular for a reason, they're inherently compelling, even if they're easy. A common criticism of Dragon Ball nowadays is that it subverts expectations too much where a more standard ending would be better served.
And yeah, Frost saying that he was leading Piccolo on was an obvious lie to cover up the fact that he was using his poison needle. If Frost didn't have poison, Piccolo would've shot him in the face with his Makankosappo (probably expanding it to impact instead of pierce) and Frost would be unconscious.
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Not if we go by the dialogue
Seems like fanon to make Piccolo look better to me. Nobody contradicts Frost and it is more in line with the idea presented that Piccolo couldn't win
I don't think the anime and manga would diverge that greatly at that stage by flipping Piccolo's chances to win. Especially by having the intent be the opposite of what the characters say with no hint toward this.
But Frost DID have his poison, and knew he did. So that doesn't contradict the idea that he allowed himself to get in that situation in order to actually hit Piccolo with it.
Edited by Saiga on Oct 17th 2018 at 6:06:34 PM
Jaco contradicts Frost when he calls out his cheating. Frost frames his victory over Piccolo as him breaking out of his arm-hold by sheer strength and knocking him out. We see him struggle to break free before he makes the decision to poison him. Also, Frost himself literally says that if Piccolo had hit him with the Makankosappo, Frost would've lost.
Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Oct 17th 2018 at 1:14:33 AM
This honestly just sounds like one of many problems with the tournament.
Personally, if I could change it, I'd just make it so that each of the five fought in one match, actually kept Buu in, made Monaka actually strong, and not make Frost evil in the first place.
And in this scenario I guess if made the match ups they would go:
- Buu vs. Botama
- Monaka vs. Frost
- Piccolo vs. Magetta
- Vegeta vs. Cabba
- Goku vs. Hit
Goku and Vegeta don't do everything, other characters get some spotlight, and in this scenario since Monaka is actually strong, a taste of his power for later.
Interestingly Frost isn't really "evil" in the manga, just kind of a jerk, which pretty heavily implies the "Freeza-lite" persona wasn't in the outline. It's the anime that added him being a mass murderer who openly cackles about his evil deeds. I have to wonder if, like Beerus, Jiren, and Toppo, Toei laid the Adaptational Villainy on heavy because Frost was fighting Goku.
Edited by Kamiccolo on Oct 17th 2018 at 1:21:09 AM
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But Piccolo never would've hit with it as long as Frost had the poison.
I guess it's subjective whether Frost was leading him on or covering it up, but if it's the latter than the fight really is just pandering.
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Monaka actually being strong makes him nothing special as a Toriyama character, you'd be better off just dropping him for 18 or something if you just wanted another fighter.
In that scenario I'd probably swap Boo and Piccolo. Also, would you have u 7 win all five matches?
I also think Vegeta only fighting Cabba would be a bit underwhelming.
Edited by Saiga on Oct 17th 2018 at 6:24:59 PM
The point was that if Frost didn't have poison, Piccolo would've won that fight, and poison was explicitly against the rules. Piccolo deserved that win, fair and square. Technically, Goku also deserved that win against Frost, but no-one would argue that point.
Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Oct 17th 2018 at 1:26:29 AM
That depends on how you interpret Frost's strategy. You think that was a lie, I think Frost was right about being caught deliberately, which makes the 'he would have won' argument moot.
That would make the outline of both versions the same, which I think is more likely.
Edited by Saiga on Oct 17th 2018 at 6:32:12 PM
Okay, here's how the fight went:
Piccolo starts charging the Makankosappo and Frost shoots at him, hitting him in the leg.
Piccolo lands and makes clones, which Frost shoots and destroys.
Frost attacks Piccolo with punches. Frost breaks Piccolo's concentration on the Makankosappo, dissipating its energy.
While Frost gloats, Piccolo gets him in the arm-hold. Piccolo resumes charging the Makankosappo, and he confirms to a bewildered Frost that he let Frost dissipate his charged Makankosappo so that Frost would let down his guard and Piccolo could get him in the arm-hold.
Frost struggles to break free, to no avail. He suddenly regains confidence when he poisons Piccolo's arm.
There is no part of that that Frost planned, aside from the split-second decision to poison Piccolo. Piccolo played Frost like a fiddle. Frost isn't just a cheater, he's also a one-trick pony.
That definitely seems like an unbiased summary that did not leave anything out or apply personal interpretation over the top of it.
I remember the fight. I remember Piccolo calling himself a strategist and saying he played Frost, only for Frost to throw the same line back at him and imply it was him playing Piccolo.
Frost's signs of struggle can be taking either way, because it's the same thing as Piccolo pretending to be losing when he gets hit out of charging his attack. They act vulnerable until the reveal.
It could go either way admittedky, but I think the interpretation that Frost was fooling sticks closer to the idea that Piccolo couldn't win and the manga's version. If Piccolo was really meant to be the winner, it doesn't make sense that he'd willingly step down after it.
Okay, I just checked. Frost never says anything of the sort. Transcript, starting from when Piccolo grabs Frost:
Frost: "What?! What is this?!"
Piccolo: "You fell for it, Frost. How best to store my ki... That was one of the two things I had to think about. The other one was... How to hit you."
Frost: "I was solely focused on your rising ki. So I thought I had won the second I made the ki disperse..."
Piccolo: "And that created an opening."
Frost: "Could it be that you allowed me to pierce your leg for the purpose of creating this situation?"
~Piccolo nods~
Frost: "I'm beaten. This truly was a trump card. Indeed, there's no way your finishing move can miss now."
Piccolo: "I may not look it, but in Universe 7 I'm known as quite the clever fighter. The fact that you were unaware of my fighting style is the reason you lost."
~Frost, wordlessly, adjusts his arm to stab Piccolo's arm and poison him~
There's nothing here that even slightly implies that Frost allowed himself to get caught. Nothing at all.
Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Oct 17th 2018 at 2:21:03 AM
It's the exchange after Frost was exposed
Piccolo: "I thought I was pulling a fast one over on you, but it looks like it was the other way around".
Frost: "The fact that you were unaware of my fighting style was the reason that you lost, Mr Strategist".
Now, you can argue that they're just saying that Frost only won by cheating and Piccolo was only duped by thinking Frost was too nice for that. But that doesn't really fit with Piccolo's dialogue of 'I thought I was pulling a fast one over on you' if he really did genuinely trick Frost.
No, it still fits. Piccolo successfully pulled a fast one on Frost, but Frost was pulling a bigger fast one on everyone present the whole time, including Piccolo, negating Piccolo's fast one. The implication of that exchange is definitely that Frost won because of his cheating poison needle basically giving him an instant-win condition.
I can see that interpretation but dialogue is more like Piccolo saying he didn't pull a fast one on Frost. 'I thought' generally means 'I was wrong'.
Of course, that also depends on the wording of the Japanese dialogue more-so.
But it also doesn't fit Piccolo's decision to drop out at the end, or the fact that Vegeta needed to be the one who beat Frost. Those paint the picture of Piccolo being unable to do so himself.
What do you guys think of Masako X's idea
(time stamp 3:21) that Vegeta should have been the target of Broly's rage not Vegeta?
I personally agree with him. It's a lot more interesting and could give Vegeta a Sins of the Father arc to explore.
- SSB Goku: BR
- SSB Vegeta: BR
- Bardock: BR
- Paragus: BR
- Rage Broly: BR
- Beets: BR
- SSG Prison Planet Goku
- SS3 Cumber
Also, Heroes is coming to the Switch! World Mission will have everything from Super DBH up til Universe Mission 2 will be in the game, and it seems there'll be an adventure mode?
Agreed. Goku never needed motivation to become stronger. He always kept up his training, so the entire thing with Monaka is dumb and a waste of time.
I can't remember if it's a thing anymore in the manga.
One Strip! One Strip!Monaka's role is exactly the same as Jackie Chun's role in OG DB. Both Beerus and Roshi state that the reason they're doing what they're doing is so that Goku doesn't get cocky and feel like he's become the strongest already, encouraging him to keep training under the idea that "there's always someone stronger".
Not saying that Monaka was handled good or bad, but merely that there's precedence.
"There's not a girl alive who wouldn't be happy being called cute." ~Tamamo-no-Mae

No Piccolo had a good chance of Victory. Until Frost cheated and pricked him with the poison needle.