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Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#88326: Oct 16th 2018 at 10:14:27 PM

Yeah it's been hard for Vegeta to hold a grudge against Frieza in the past because Frieza was busy being dead.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#88327: Oct 16th 2018 at 10:19:29 PM

Vegeta beating up Frost as a replacement for Freeza is the assumed fan reason. Not the in-universe one. In-universe, Vegeta was just disgusted at Frost for being a cheater and a coward, and he thought Frost deserved to have his face punched in instead of getting off easy just with a disqualification.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#88328: Oct 16th 2018 at 10:21:23 PM

He should have let Piccolo finish him off.

He had no right to steal his fight.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#88329: Oct 16th 2018 at 10:27:29 PM

Yeah, I think this would've been better:

Vegeta: "Piccolo! Drop out of the tournament!"

Piccolo: "Why?"

Vegeta: "Because cheating, cowardly scum like him deserves a beating, not to get off easy with a mere disqualification!"

Piccolo: "You know, Vegeta, I agree."

*Piccolo one-shots Frost with the Makankosappo he's been kept charging throughout the entire fight*

Piccolo: "Bring on the next fighter!"

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Oct 16th 2018 at 10:29:13 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#88330: Oct 16th 2018 at 10:42:19 PM

[up] Heh now that would have been awesome. [tup] [awesome]

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#88331: Oct 16th 2018 at 10:45:44 PM

And have Vegeta's reaction be basically "Huh, well alright then." Change his reasoning from "I really want to be the person to kick Frost's ass" to "I want Frost's ass to be kicked, and I don't think Piccolo can do it, so it has to be me". Have that follow up from Piccolo's line before fighting Frost about how everyone underestimates him, and suddenly you have a complete narrative throughline.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Oct 16th 2018 at 10:46:43 AM

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#88332: Oct 17th 2018 at 12:02:25 AM

That sounds ridiculous and doesn't fit the fight that happens before it in either version.

I dislike Vegeta cutting in on that fight because it proves nothing and just seems lke pre-development Vegeta dick-swinging.

It would have made more sense for Piccolo to decide not to let Frost be disqualified and demand a proper finish to the match, then dropping out after due to exhaustion.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#88333: Oct 17th 2018 at 12:08:18 AM

I mean, Piccolo wasn't supposed to even stand a chance, which actually makes Frost using his poison even weirder.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#88334: Oct 17th 2018 at 12:14:13 AM

I'd say he should use his martial arts to overcome the strength difference but this is Dragon Ball after all.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#88335: Oct 17th 2018 at 12:20:45 AM

That would make no sense when you look at the greater context of the series and how non-martial artists are able to compete just fine.

[up][up] Yeah there's also that. I think it's fine from a perspective of 'Piccolo couldn't win, but proved to be a hassle Frost didn't want to deal with'.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#88336: Oct 17th 2018 at 12:25:06 AM

Well people do win more due to being plain stronger than the other instead of having like better tactics or skills generally.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#88337: Oct 17th 2018 at 12:26:36 AM

Piccolo saying that everyone underestimates him was potentially a set-up for Piccolo proving them wrong by defeating Frost. The anime gave him a believable way of doing this, by charging a Makankosappo the whole fight which would've wrecked Frost if it had landed.

The manga dropped the ball by saying "no, Goku's right, Piccolo doesn't stand a chance", but making Piccolo vs Frost into a story about the Big Namekian that Could, despite his doubting friends, turns it into a cool underdog fight.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#88338: Oct 17th 2018 at 12:27:29 AM

It's not like skill or strategy is irrelevant in Dragon Ball. It's just that it can only go so far once you throw super powers into the mix. You can't expect it to follow conventions based on real world limits of strength.

That and there's no downside to having strength so the skill vs strength dichotomy has always been dumb.

[up] They didn't drop the ball just because they didn't do what you wanted. Goku being right should not be a shock to anyone, he knows his shit. But even so, Goku being right didn't change that Piccolo was able to pressure Frost more than anticipated, showing that he HAD been underestimated without being overly pandering. It's more than just win/lose.

The anime made it so that Frost was leading Piccolo on the entire time, which doesn't make it very different (but it does seem pretty spiteful).

Finally, being an underdog story is not the only way of doing things and it does not automatically make for a good story.

Edited by Saiga on Oct 18th 2018 at 5:31:08 AM

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#88339: Oct 17th 2018 at 12:27:45 AM

I don't think Piccolo said everyone underestimated him though, he was just lamenting his place had become "sort of wear down the enemy for the important people."

Not liking it doesn't mean he thinks Goku is wrong, and Goku being wrong would be weird since he had the best gauge on Frost's strength.

Edited by LSBK on Oct 17th 2018 at 2:32:50 PM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#88340: Oct 17th 2018 at 12:30:23 AM

[up] Well its better than being the jobber.

Vegeta's job is to get his ass kicked brutally & without mercy after all.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
agent-trunks IHE from Every-where, but there Since: Apr, 2015
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#88342: Oct 17th 2018 at 12:35:27 AM

I'm not saying that it's "the only way of doing things", nor that "it automatically makes for a good story", just that it would've been better than what the show went with.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#88343: Oct 17th 2018 at 12:37:40 AM

Honestly I just wanted Piccolo to get a win for once.

He was brought on to the team, at least have him do something of merit.

Edited by slimcoder on Oct 17th 2018 at 12:38:01 PM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#88344: Oct 17th 2018 at 12:38:16 AM

I'm responding to it being an underdog story. That isn't worth anything by itself.

Ultimately, that would be even worse than the anime version where it wouldn't make sense with the idea that preceeded it (Frost led Piccolo on) and would be really obviously pandering to Piccolo.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#88345: Oct 17th 2018 at 12:44:09 AM

Tv Tropes. The trope of "underdog story" is a popular one for a reason. Sometimes, it's good to use cliches.

Okay, the only "leading on" Frost did was lying to everyone that he was a good guy, Piccolo had him on the ropes and was about to win if Frost didn't cheat with his poison. Secondly, giving Piccolo one win in the tournament is not "pandering" to him, especially since Vegeta got three wins in a tournament against five people.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Oct 17th 2018 at 12:45:31 PM

Kamiccolo Since: May, 2018
#88346: Oct 17th 2018 at 12:45:24 AM

You can't expect it to follow conventions based on real world limits of strength.
I mean even in reality the top martial artists in the world like Georges St-Pierre and Daniel Cormier would still have a roughly 0% chance of beating a Kodiak Bear in a fight. And there's generally a reason that even a 20-pound muscle weight advantage in MMA at below-heavyweight levels is considered to offer a horrendously unbalanced advantage to the stronger and heavier fighter to the point of mandating separate classes.
[up] Well its better than being the jobber.
Only because he's too weak to serve that role anymore.

Super Vegeta on the other hand is just about the most perfect example of a jobber you're likely to find in fiction, especially in the manga. Bar his third bout with Black, he literally only ever fights for the purpose of establishing the power scale in 1v1 encounters. Him being equal to Goku in the same form makes him very convenient as a measuring stick.

Edited by Kamiccolo on Oct 17th 2018 at 12:50:28 PM

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#88347: Oct 17th 2018 at 12:51:48 AM

He wins against the people too weak to be a threat at all.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#88348: Oct 17th 2018 at 12:52:16 AM

[up][up][up] No, when Piccolo thinks he's captured Frost, Frost says that he'd been playing Piccolo and is able to poison him then.

It would DEFINITELY be pandering to present an enemy that even Goku thinks Piccolo can't beat, only for Piccolo to prove everyone wrong because he's sooooo smart. 2 of Vegeta's wins were obvious outcomes because his opponents were set up as being weaker, the last one was a struggle for him that he won in a semi-joke fashion. And I already said it was unnessecary to fight Frost - but he really wasn't pandered to like your idea for Piccolo would be.

[up][up] Also that, yeah.

Edited by Saiga on Oct 18th 2018 at 5:52:57 AM

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#88349: Oct 17th 2018 at 12:52:42 AM

Tv Tropes. The trope of "underdog story" is a popular one for a reason. Sometimes, it's good to use cliches.

They're not (usually) inherently bad, but that doesn't make them inherently good either. I think Saiga's point is that there's no point in doing them just for their own sake. If so, I agree with it.

[up]And even against Magetta it was only a struggle because Vegeta insisted on making it one. Otherwise he would have just used Blue, as they bring up.

Edited by LSBK on Oct 17th 2018 at 2:54:46 PM

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#88350: Oct 17th 2018 at 12:53:54 AM

That's what I mean, yeah. Just saying it's a 'cool underdog story' doesn't say much unless you're passing an inherent value judgement on underdog stories.


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