TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Dragon Ball

Go To

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#88226: Oct 16th 2018 at 5:09:24 AM

Let it be known that Base Vegeta is far stronger than Gotenks.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: In love with love
Formerly G.G.
#88227: Oct 16th 2018 at 5:14:38 AM

Suffice to say, the kids aren't going to to be fighters anytime soon.

"Mai waifu."
fasoman1996 Google "big ears" from Argentina (A.K.A. Naziland) Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
Google "big ears"
#88228: Oct 16th 2018 at 5:46:41 AM

Their human side holds them back.

Its sad that Goten suffers from it the most. Since Goku is alive again, he lost the one reason he was around in the first place, to be the new Goku.

Hopefully he gets something in the future. At least Trunks got to interact with his Future self and the Pilaf Gang.

Uni cat
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#88229: Oct 16th 2018 at 6:00:55 AM

Someone mentioned that Toriyama thrives on character interaction, and I feel that holds true.

If he stuck to his old premise of having the next generation take over, they'd be better off.

But because he backpedaled, Goten and Trunks don't have a real purpose beyond being mini Goku and Vegeta.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#88230: Oct 16th 2018 at 6:20:13 AM

I dont think Vegeta could ever be as much of a brat as Kid Trunks. Especially not with Freeza hanging over his head.

Which, mind, I sorta like about Kid Trunks. Like, Kid Trunks and Future Trunks interactions are great, because Kid Trunks yelling at himself to get his shit together is fantastic.

Goten is, at least, slightly more polite than Kid Goku ever was? Or tries to be.

Murders less people. Is. More of a crybaby? More sensitive.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#88231: Oct 16th 2018 at 6:26:52 AM

You know, at this point we're just throwing around hypotheticals with no concrete evidence.

For all Toriyama cares, he could just feel the kids are weaker than the human adults because that's what he wants.

I'd say the original manga is pretty concrete evidence. Yes, Toriyama/Toei/Toyotarou can freely contradict it, but if they did so it'd be still be bullshit.

But given that the Super manga hasn't contradicted this - and didn't even try to imply the humans would be more useful than the kids - I don't think you can say 'Toriyama could just feel the kids are weaker than the human adults'. We've seen no evidence of him leaning to that kind of thought.

It's obvious that Goten and Trunks won't get any serious roles in future material, but that's irrelevant in these in-universe looks or saying what we think would make more sense.

[up] My rough ideas for how I'd write the cast if the 'pass the torch' thing had actually been stuck with involved Goten being kinder/more empathetic to contrast with Trunks being a brat. That is based on him generally being more polite and emotional like you've pointed out.

Edited by Saiga on Oct 16th 2018 at 11:29:06 PM

MightyMatilda Mr. Clueless from New Jersey, USA Since: Jan, 2015
Mr. Clueless
#88232: Oct 16th 2018 at 6:29:19 AM

[up]and didn't even try to imply the humans would be more useful than the kids

I don't think the kids could've taught Goku Ultra Instinct.

De Romanīs, lingua Latina gloriosa non fuī.
Ikedatakeshi Baby dango from singapore Since: Nov, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Baby dango
#88233: Oct 16th 2018 at 6:34:00 AM

Neither should Roshi, but you don't see that stopping him.

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#88234: Oct 16th 2018 at 7:01:08 AM

If the point of the tournament of power was vaporising people and killing them and destroying them or if there just werent any rules, then I could much less easily accept the humans as more useful.

But Trunks is rebellious and a troublemaker and a brat, and Goten is really dumb. The last tournament, they broke some rules (self imposed rules from their parents like no flying, blasts or super Saiyan, but still) and then Might Mask.

The boys have raw power, but basically nothing else. Tactically they're dumb as bricks. Short attention spans.

Edited by unnoun on Oct 16th 2018 at 10:13:48 AM

fasoman1996 Google "big ears" from Argentina (A.K.A. Naziland) Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
Google "big ears"
#88235: Oct 16th 2018 at 7:12:54 AM

But isnt Goten the only sensible member of the Son family

Uni cat
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#88236: Oct 16th 2018 at 7:16:23 AM

That doesnt say much.

Goten is the sort of kid who, if he played football (er. Soccer in America) he would get confused and score on his own goal.

...Assuming he didnt vaporize the ball with a kick, I mean.

Goten might be more polite and sensitive and emotional than Kid Goku, but he's also ridiculously easily peer pressured by Trunks. Like, Goku was more independent, while Goten seems to have a very dependent personality. Follower, not a leader.

Goku regularly did whatever he wanted, and took initiative for things, in ways Goten typically doesn't. Most notably going to take Turtle to the beach when Bulma didnt want to.

Goten goes along with Trunks's plans usually, no matter how terrible those plans are.

TyeDyeWildebeest Unreasonably Quirky from Big Rock Candy Mountain Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: How does it feel to treat me like you do?
Unreasonably Quirky
#88237: Oct 16th 2018 at 7:18:39 AM

The last tournament, they broke some rules (self imposed rules from their parents like no flying, blasts or super Saiyan, but still)

Refresh my memory; during the Tournament of Power did Zen'o just tell the fighters that they weren't allowed to use ki to fly, or did he physically strip them of their power to do so?

No beer?! But if there's no beer, then there's no beef or beans!
Ikedatakeshi Baby dango from singapore Since: Nov, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Baby dango
#88238: Oct 16th 2018 at 7:24:20 AM

They were physically restricted from flying, not that it actually mattered since they were practically flying by the end.

Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#88239: Oct 16th 2018 at 7:43:01 AM

Now that I think about it the kids are on more equal grounds with the humans than I assumed.

I was going to say the humans have cooler and more interesting movesets, but Gotenks has some really fun moves.

Krillin and 18/Roshi and Goku have good emotional moments, but with the kids you can get father/son stuff with Goku and Vegeta.

Gotenks only lasts five minutes which means the kids would probably be the first ones out, but the humans were the first ones out too so it equals out.

I guess it really comes down to which characters you like better.

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#88240: Oct 16th 2018 at 7:53:50 AM

In hindsight, there is an interesting thing that could have happened, where Gotenks kills one of the weaker fighters by accident, gets disqualified, and then Goten and Trunks have to deal with killing a person for the first time.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#88241: Oct 16th 2018 at 8:01:25 AM

@Saiga: that was more of a hypothetical scenario.

I think he just...doesn't care lol. Even if it contradicts in-universe reasoning.

The reason the kids are shafted in-universe is dumb, but nothing is done about it

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#88242: Oct 16th 2018 at 8:04:10 AM

Future Trunks and Gotenks not interacting remains a missed opportunity.

FrozenWolf2 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#88243: Oct 16th 2018 at 8:29:41 AM

... you know

I always wonder Why did Future Trunks bother with Time Travel?

Cause you'd think the dead Z fighters would Via King Kai relay valuable information... Like WHERE NEW NAMEK IS

whats with this sudden the other world just shuts up...

Did Dabura rise up and over throw the heavens?

Praise be to the absolute Queen
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#88244: Oct 16th 2018 at 8:43:47 AM

No reason is ever given why King Kai suddenly zips his lips.

I believe someone pointed out that he had to either be watching or actively contact them, but you'd think the Z Warriors who made the trip previously would head off to him and let him know if he wasn't so he could get in contact with Gohan or something about finding New Namek (or even contact them himself and ask them to make the wish from a distance).

I guess Toriyama just either didn't think of it, or ignored it to get the plot in the direction he wanted, just as we've been discussing.

One Strip! One Strip!
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#88245: Oct 16th 2018 at 10:45:43 AM

So anyone else noticing a theme of fatherhood in the movie? You have King Vegeta taking pride in his son, Bardock sending Goki away to keep him safe, and Paragus' Vendetta for what was done to Broly.

Even King Cold is present despite playing a really minor role in the grand scheme of things.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#88246: Oct 16th 2018 at 10:57:11 AM

Eh. More like an accident than anything else.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#88247: Oct 16th 2018 at 12:06:23 PM

I'll say that a lot of people are kind of missing Saiga's point when they say things like "Super did it like this, so it makes sense" or "If Toriyama/Toei/whoever doesn't care, that means it makes sense."

The writers of stories can always do whatever they want, because that's how fiction works. It's just that fiction that usually pays no attention to its own internal logic and consistency is usually deemed terrible and lazy (well, unless the lack of consistency and logic is actual an intentional part of the story).

So going "Super wrote Tien taking out an enemy that had Gohan and Piccolo pinned" doesn't automatically prove Tien's usefulness, all it does it proves that someone wanted to try and make him seem useful. It says nothing about whether the execution was handled well, or whether the scenario made sense to begin with. Super, and the Tournament of Power in general, are filled with moments like that.

Edited by LSBK on Oct 16th 2018 at 2:07:40 PM

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#88248: Oct 16th 2018 at 12:19:28 PM

[up][up] It feels too coincidental to be an accident for me.

[up]I sort of get this. The entire franchise is littered with rewrites and inconsistencies in it's own lore.

So I don't exactly blame people for just throwing their arms up and just taking it as is.

That said, just because that is the case doesn't mean people can't take issue with it either.

You can like something that doesnt make any sense.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#88249: Oct 16th 2018 at 12:21:59 PM

[up]Oh, I am very aware that you can enjoy things that don't make sense in the story. I have moments like that, most cool moments usually get some lee way, I think. I just don't like the circular reasoning going on here of "The story did it, therefore it makes sense."

I have no issue with turn your brain off fun, but I think it's better when people admit that is what's actually going on.

Edited by LSBK on Oct 16th 2018 at 2:28:29 PM

fasoman1996 Google "big ears" from Argentina (A.K.A. Naziland) Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
Google "big ears"
#88250: Oct 16th 2018 at 1:01:20 PM

If i wanted logic, i wouldn't be a Dragon Ball fan, would i? tongue

Uni cat

Total posts: 130,800
Top