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lara16 Since: Mar, 2018
#88176: Oct 15th 2018 at 4:10:24 AM

They could have just cut the fighters in the tournament of power down by 2 or something. Like, remove Roshi and Tien from Universe 7 and other weaker, irrelevant fighters from the other universes. It'd give the others more screentime. Replace Roshi's mentor moment by making Krillin do something actually notable. Replace Tien's... actually I don't remember him doing anything, nevermind. Maybe make it 3 even; remove Android 17 (because really, he didn't need to be brought back) and give most parts of his role to Android 18. Yeah, it would have been dumb for her to be that powerful, but it was dumb with 17 too, so I don't care. At least she's had some sort of presence before the tournament.

Also I like 18 and I want her to look cool tongue

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#88177: Oct 15th 2018 at 4:10:59 AM

Goo-geta. Copy Vegeta.

Fedetropes Call me Blast, not Fedetropes from Doomed universe Since: Dec, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Call me Blast, not Fedetropes
#88178: Oct 15th 2018 at 4:55:30 AM

[up]...ah

¡PONLE QUE DIGA!:"¡HUMONGOSAURIO HASTA LA MUERTE!"
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#88179: Oct 15th 2018 at 8:56:49 AM

I see what you're saying Saiga, but I still don't really trust Goten and Trunks with such an important battle.

We can't be sure that Gotenks would get serious any more quickly than we did with Buu, and I also don't trust Toriyama or Toei to not go to the same they run out of power before they can win the fight well either.

In terms of power, they are a better choice. Narratively, they are as good as anyone, because I firmly believe they'd get taken out for one reason or another.

...so ultimately, it doesn't really matter when I really think about it.

One Strip! One Strip!
fasoman1996 Google "big ears" from Argentina (A.K.A. Naziland) Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
Google "big ears"
#88180: Oct 15th 2018 at 9:47:36 AM

The last time Gotenks got tasked with saving the day, they indirectly got most of their friends killed.

Yeaaaaah...

Uni cat
Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#88181: Oct 15th 2018 at 10:04:58 AM

Gotenks vs Super Buu is the best argument for not bringing the kids along.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#88182: Oct 15th 2018 at 10:16:23 AM

They have gotten older though & thus deserve another chance.

What Gohan also fucked up but he still saved the day.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#88183: Oct 15th 2018 at 10:30:24 AM

New All Systems Goku

On Kibito: "This Vigo from Ghostbusters 2 looking motherfucker"

Kamiccolo Since: May, 2018
#88184: Oct 15th 2018 at 11:30:18 AM

They're pretty perceptive, picking up on Ma Junior being Piccolo's ring name from back in DB.

Speaking of 17, why did he even need to be more powerful? The narrative would have been far more effective if he was weaker and totally impotent compared to the likes of Dyspo much less Jiren. It'd make the tournament appear genuinely chaotic and unpredictable that a weakling is the one who won it by sheer chance.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#88185: Oct 15th 2018 at 11:32:14 AM

[up][up]

...he kinda does look like Vigo (THE MASTER OF EVIL!!!) doesn't he?

Just the face and hair, but still.

[up][up][up]

This is true. But I don't know. While there is development Dragonball feels like a story where getting the plot to go in the direction the story teller wants is more important than character consistency. I wouldn't be shocked if Goten and Trunks were reverted in order to facilitate certain plot developments.

So I've been re-thinking my stance on how good a choice they are once again, and have decided to try and catalogue just how much of how things went down during the fight with Buu was Goten and Trunks fault.

Good and bad things they did directly:

  • Not immediately fighting at SSJ 3 (and in fact, pretending they had no other way to fight, forcing Piccolo to destroy the door to the Room of Time and Spirit) when they started the fight. In fact, fucking around way too much during that fight, even when they were being serious.

  • Figuring out Super Saiyan 3 in the first place, along with the Super Kamikaze Ghost Attack.

Things that weren't in their control:

  • Buu not waiting the full time. Remember they still had time on the hourglass but Buu refused to work and Piccolo had to buy time for them to rest up and be ready by purposely giving Buu a runaround. If they'd had a bit more time, they might have figured out the thing with SSJ 3 running out of power so soon and shortening the fusion.

As I understand, a lot of stuff they did when first fusing (like running off to fight Buu when they first successfully fused) were anime only. Looking at it this way, maybe they aren't the massive fuck ups I claimed them to be.

Unfortunately, this is all moot, because the plot doesn't want to focus on them.

Edited by HandsomeRob on Oct 15th 2018 at 12:32:43 PM

One Strip! One Strip!
fasoman1996 Google "big ears" from Argentina (A.K.A. Naziland) Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
Google "big ears"
#88186: Oct 15th 2018 at 11:50:37 AM

The one with a brain in the situation was Piccolo and resorted to the desperate solution because he saw no other way. Not his fault that Buu bsed his way out of the chamber by doing what everyone is good in DB, screaming.

Then everyone died. Except Little Green because Popo was smart enough to throw the one that needed to stay alive out of the ring.

Edited by fasoman1996 on Oct 15th 2018 at 3:51:17 PM

Uni cat
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#88187: Oct 15th 2018 at 11:52:06 AM

[up][up][up][up][up]But have they gotten older?

Edited by Anomalocaris20 on Oct 15th 2018 at 2:52:15 PM

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#88188: Oct 15th 2018 at 11:53:19 AM

Gotenks vs Super Buu is the best argument for not bringing the kids along.

By that same logic Gohan vs. Cell justifies not bringing Gohan along. Or, hell, even Gohan vs. Super Buu since he played around during that fight too.

And yet for some reason, no one actually makes this argument against Gohan.

[up]They should be older, but Super hasn't really changed their designs because... I don't know, that would take effort?

Edited by LSBK on Oct 15th 2018 at 6:09:41 AM

Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#88189: Oct 15th 2018 at 2:31:42 PM

I wish they'd age them up to adult age just because I think an adult Gotenks would be pretty cool.

The legend has returned.
Hobgoblin Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#88190: Oct 15th 2018 at 4:08:59 PM

As I recall, Gotenks left to fight Buu in the manga, but it was offscreen and he came back beaten up?

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#88191: Oct 15th 2018 at 4:29:12 PM

The last time Gotenks got tasked with saving the day, they indirectly got most of their friends killed.

Yeaaaaah...

And what did 18, Kuririn and Roshi do in that situation? Fucking died.

Gotenks vs Boo is a horrible argument for excluding the boys, because it demonstrates how much more useful they are than the other side characters even when they're completely messing about.

In the tournament of power, messing around and dragging out the fight is always more useful than being immediately eliminated

They didn't get anyone killed because those characters would have all immediately have died if Gotenks wasn't present. Thanks to them at least Piccolo is alive.

And again, messing about didn't actually change the outcome of that fight. The first 25 minutes of their fusion was irrelevant to the last 5, if they'd gone all out from the start, they'd still only have 5 minutes to try to defeat Boo and we saw that just wasn't enough for them.

The only chance they had is if they or Piccolo realized Boo could regenerate even from smoke, so when they tricked Boo with the ghosts they could have finished him. Unless you're going to knock Piccolo for that as well you can't blame Gotenks.

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#88192: Oct 15th 2018 at 4:38:02 PM

Goten and Trunks look younger in Super than they did in Z.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#88193: Oct 15th 2018 at 4:39:36 PM

And what did 18, Kuririn and Roshi do in that situation? Fucking died.

Gotenks vs Boo is a horrible argument for excluding the boys, because it demonstrates how much more useful they are than the other side characters even when they're completely messing about.

In the tournament of power, messing around and dragging out the fight is always more useful than being immediately eliminated

They didn't get anyone killed because those characters would have all immediately have died if Gotenks wasn't present. Thanks to them at least Piccolo is alive.

And again, messing about didn't actually change the outcome of that fight. The first 25 minutes of their fusion was irrelevant to the last 5, if they'd gone all out from the start, they'd still only have 5 minutes to try to defeat Boo and we saw that just wasn't enough for them.

...But if they'd just tried to get the job done, in theory no one would have died. Yes, we know that they'd have never pulled it off due to not having enough time if they went to Super Saiyan 3, but from an in universe perspective that's irrelevant. This is not really a good argument Saiga. I will admit that how useful Goten and Trunks would be is entirely a crapshoot. They got a lot of crazy techniques that could be very useful, but I still think their attitude to the Buu fight makes it way too risky to use them. Ultimately, I'm gonna say that how it goes depends on what Toriyama would have decided to do if he used them.

The only chance they had is if they or Piccolo realized Boo could regenerate even from smoke, so when they tricked Boo with the ghosts they could have finished him. Unless you're going to knock Piccolo for that as well you can't blame Gotenks.

Oh no. Buu regenerating from the smoke is one of the most unfair things he does. Reminds me of that one trope page I tried to start: being cautious doesn't help, where someone does the pragmatic or outright intelligent thing, and it just doesn't even matter.

One Strip! One Strip!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#88194: Oct 15th 2018 at 5:55:57 PM

...But if they'd just tried to get the job done, in theory no one would have died. Yes, we know that they'd have never pulled it off due to not having enough time if they went to Super Saiyan 3, but from an in universe perspective that's irrelevant. This is not really a good argument Saiga.

That wasn't my argument. I'm not saying that Gotenks holding back was irrelevant to his chances of beating Boo, and that was entirely based on knowledge that the boys had prior to the fight - either they can beat Boo in the 5 minutes they have as Super Saiyan 3 or they can't. What happens in the first 25 minutes has no bearing on their odds to defeat Boo in the last 5 (except for the fact that they came really close to winning without SS 3, which would be an even better result).

Besides, the issue isn't about whether Gotenks would be better off taking things more seriously. The issue is whether the cast would be better off without him, and without Gotenks everyone would have died faster. Gotenks did not make the situation worse than not having him would have been, which means that the fight cannot be used as evidence that he would make the TOP situation worse.

You can easily argue that Gotenks is not as useful as he could be, but not that he is less useful or actively detrimental compared to characters like Kuririn, Roshi or 18 who contributed absolutely nothing to the Super Boo situation and lived as long as they did thanks to Gotenks.

Edited by Saiga on Oct 15th 2018 at 10:56:14 PM

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#88195: Oct 15th 2018 at 6:03:02 PM

You can easily argue that Gotenks is not as useful as he could be, but not that he is less useful or actively detrimental compared to characters like Kuririn, Roshi or 18 who contributed absolutely nothing to the Super Boo situation and lived as long as they did thanks to Gotenks.

Fair enough. I can agree to that.

One Strip! One Strip!
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#88196: Oct 15th 2018 at 6:06:25 PM

Gotenks did have Super Buu on the ropes.

Sure he wasted a lot of time but regardless he was the stronger fighter.

Super Buu was visibly shitting bricks at the end of it.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#88197: Oct 15th 2018 at 6:15:48 PM

Gotenks nearly killed him twice.

Both times, Buu was lucky to survive.

I think the problem is that even if you argue that Goten and Trunks are good choices for the tournament, I don't trust the narrative to not have them fuck up for the sake of plot.

So I guess I'm looking at it from more of a meta perspective. The story would find some way to keep them from affecting things, so why bother. In that way, they aren't much better than the humans.

Sure, the Saiyan kids are more powerful but they'd probably have just as much of an effect as Tien did if that's how they wanted it to go.

And since that's not really fair to them (as it's not their fault that the story won't let them do as much as they could), I'm bowing out of this argument while still believing I'm right anyway GRACEFULLY.

One Strip! One Strip!
Kamiccolo Since: May, 2018
#88198: Oct 15th 2018 at 6:19:02 PM

This is all missing the greater point that "competence" and "skill" are literally irrelevant in Dragon Ball if you don't have power within striking distance of who you're fighting (unless you have magic like Buu and Babidi, which is a whole different ball game). It doesn't matter if Roshi has more "experience" or whatever than Goten, Goten could let Roshi punch him all day until the geezer exhausts himself to death and be none the worse for wear. Manga Kale demonstrated that particularly well when she did the ki equivalent of flexing and blasted half of the fighters there off the stage almost as a side effect. Ditto when not-SSBE Vegeta powered up against GoD Toppo.

Edited by Kamiccolo on Oct 15th 2018 at 6:20:17 AM

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#88199: Oct 15th 2018 at 6:20:50 PM

This it true.

Though that hypnosis technique Roshi used on Goku might work, but he'd have to get Goten to stand there and let him.

There's also the Mafuuba, which seems to have received a Retcon in how deadly it is.

One Strip! One Strip!
fasoman1996 Google "big ears" from Argentina (A.K.A. Naziland) Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
Google "big ears"
#88200: Oct 15th 2018 at 6:26:15 PM

[up][up][up] So Goten and Trunks are in the same situation as Buu. Relegated to side characters because of a meta perspective.

Although in Buu's case, it's more of him having a broken powerset that could make a grand part of the opponents virtually worthless. And Healing Hands.

Uni cat

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