I mean, I'm not sure how strictly. Accurate. Or exact or precise. Lemo's VA's knowledge of the entire series is.
...Also in fairness, there's things that are a little fungible or prone to debate or exaggeration or interpretation or. Fun with definitions.
Vegeta was stronger than Goku in their first fight, and he left Goku crushed and broken and all, but like. Goku and company did stop Vegeta from destroying or conquering or hurting Earth, even if Goku needed help. So. Mission accomplished. Objective complete. Nobody died after Goku showed up except Nappa.
Vegeta's goals that fight were killing everyone, so he definitely didn't "win".
So, in that sense "Goku finally loses to Vegeta" might almost sorta make sense if you wanna argue and be pedantic and use specific definitions of losing and stuff.
From a Certain Point of View I guess.
Goku still contributed a bit to the rest of the fight though.
Maybe not much, other than a Spirit Bomb that didn't end up as the final blow, and moral support via telepathy.
Also, is it me, or does the Super Manga's bit with Roshi make Ultra Instinct. Weird. By pointing out how literally every martial arts mentor character has talked about literally the same thing? And apparently none of our heroes have gotten it?
Like, it's true in the anime as well, Ultra Instinct seems to have the same concept and explanation, mostly, but like. They don't hammer in how this series has like this one aesop or fighting advice thing and nobody gets it.
After so long with power levels it's. Weird and unique. To go back to some of the more "Zen" and "Philosophy" and "Spiritual" elements of Martial Arts that Dragon Ball used to emphasize or mention more.
And I'm most surprised that the manga leaned into it like that.
Edited by unnoun on Oct 14th 2018 at 7:52:18 AM
Yeah I was not a fan of the way Roshi inspired UI in the manga. Goku's supposed to be a combat genius and all, the chapter had to make him act really dumb to facilitate Roshi's explanation. There should never have been the need for Roshi to correct him like he did.
I get the idea Toyotarou was going for, but it wasn't handled well. Having missing Roshi's point is a really on-the-nose way to have Roshi exposit.
The idea behind Roshi having some similar principles is fine, but it's left pretty unclear how long he's had that for.
Edited by Saiga on Oct 14th 2018 at 10:05:02 PM
Isn't there a callback to the Turtle School philosophy? Play well, rest well, learn well?
Which, like.
I'll give the manga this, I always liked the wise master and turtle school philosophy side of Roshi better than the gross perv, Toei.
Like, having him do the wise master thing and then subverting it with being a gross perv might be a repetitive joke but it'd still have to be better than just jumping straight to gross perv right away.
Like, at the very least in the comedic timing or structural sense.
Edited by unnoun on Oct 14th 2018 at 8:17:14 AM
There was. It's not like the messages themselves were the issue, just the idea that Goku had apparently forgotten this and had to be reminded.
While mentor Roshi is much better than perv Roshi (really, what isn't) it's quite frustrating to see Roshi portrayed as though he's much wiser and skilled than Goku because he really, really shouldn't be. The fact that his movements aren't really UI while Goku gets UI Omen shortly after makes me think that Toyotarou was never trying to portray that idea, but the way Goku gets corrected certainly sends that message.
Wait, isn't Roshi 300+ years old?
I thought, as far back as King Piccolo, he was busting out new stuff like the Mafuba.
Like, Roshi joining back in the fighting after giving up after King Piccolo is weird and a change, but the basic concept of him knowing shit that Goku doesn't know seems reasonable to me. Broadly.
Goku forgetting things he learned way back from Roshi is slightly less believable, although maybe it's a meta thing considering how much of the audience might have forgotten the "Move well, study well, play well, eat well, rest well" lesson. I dunno.
EDIT: Thinking about it more, given the whole point of Jackie Chun was to teach his students that there was always going to be someone stronger, and not to give up or get complacent in the face of that, doesn't him giving up when he did in the first place seem hypocritical or like a plot hole?
Like, I know he still did it in the manga, but. Unless I forgot something I feel like it'd be out of character even then.
There's probably still a way to articulate it to make it make sense, but. "I'm not gonna fight or train to better myself ever again because they're stronger than I am" seems like sorta the opposite of what Roshi ever tried to teach anyone ever.
Roshi says not to train to beat people up or get attention, so. Like, if he only wanted to fight because he could beat up his weaker students that's almost exactly the kind of bullying he says is wrong and bad. And not the noble "lesson teaching" he says.
Edited by unnoun on Oct 14th 2018 at 9:28:58 AM
He's better at training...that's his thing.
Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.I've never really gotten equating skill with experience. They're definitely related, and skill can come from experience, but some people picking things up faster and better than others who have been doing it much longer is a thing in real life let alone fiction.
Why should Roshi being older than Goku necessarily make him much more skilled, especially when Goku has had to think about and face challenges Roshi could never handle?
Edited by LSBK on Oct 14th 2018 at 2:07:04 PM
By that logic the most skilled ones that Goku should be learning from would be Kaioshin, Buu, and Elder Kaioshin.
We don't see UI in any of the character sheets either, nor does the marketing hint that there are forms we haven't seen. They just hint that there's a fighter we haven't seen (probably Gogeta). I think they want to maintain the polite fiction going forward that UI "doesn't count."
Edited by Kamiccolo on Oct 14th 2018 at 1:03:05 AM
I also mentioned something a while back about Jiren's power in a different thread. Jiren powers up 6 times in the Tournament of Power, and Whis thinks he might be the rumored "mortal stronger than the God of Destruction stronger than Beerus" back in either his first or second stage of power.
He starts fighting Goku already much stronger than SSB KKx20.
He powers up a 2nd time pushing the Spirit Bomb. It's either here or the first one where Whis compares his strength to that of a God of Destruction (it's two separate statements, Whis says that Jiren's power is like that of a God of Destruction, and then wonders if Jiren is the rumored mortal stronger than the Gods of Destruction, which he obviously is).
He powers up a 3rd time to KO UIO Goku, shown by him having an aura for the first time.
After fighting SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta using a level of power weaker than his level fighting Goku in Round 1, Jiren powers up a 4th time to the closest the gods have ever seen to his full power.
After Vegeta eliminates Toppo, Jiren powers up a 5th time to his unambiguous full power.
After Goku kicks his ass using UI, Jiren breaks his own limits and powers up the 6th and final time.
...Is it wrong that I wish there had been a filler arc with Marron, Goten and Trunks beating the shit out of poachers?
I hope the Broly movie has a flashback clip of, like. Marron standing on top of a pile of bodies, while Goten and Trunks do peace signs in the foreground.
Edited by unnoun on Oct 14th 2018 at 7:45:20 AM
That's a little dark man.
If it is wrong, then we need to change what is right and wrong.
One Strip! One Strip!So CineColombia, a legitimate movie venue, uploaded
a Japanese to Spanish translation of the Broly movie synopsis. We have it retranslated
◊ into English by Twitter user/professional Spanish translator pacopolitENG
. (The Google Translated one floating around isn't quite as fluent).
Also, the phrase "bloody shirt" is an idiom referring to tricking someone into outrage against an opponent using past negative events (usually in a war context, since it originated during the American Revolutionary War). In this case, Freeza is most likely taking advantage of Paragus's vengefulness to convince him to join his side, and unleash Broli against anyone that tries to stop the new Freeza Force.
Edited by XMenMutant22 on Oct 14th 2018 at 9:00:16 AM

He finally meets his dad...
He finally says he loves his family...
He finally re-learns to read...
He finally dies...again...
He finally loses to Veggie...again...
Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.