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PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#88076: Oct 11th 2018 at 7:16:52 PM

There was that one good episode of the Future Trunks arc that gave both Pilaf and Shu some much-needed Hidden Depths. Pilaf was revealed to be a coding master, which kind of explains his robots in the original series. Shu recognized Trunks' Image Training and knew to leave him alone out of respect, which does more to inform us of him being a legitimate ninja than all of his screentime wearing a ninja uniform ever did.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Oct 11th 2018 at 7:18:40 AM

firewriter Since: Dec, 2016
#88077: Oct 11th 2018 at 7:27:06 PM

I still would be nice where there is a special where Oolong, Bulma, and Goku kick back and remembered when they were a trio of young rascals looking for adventure. Maybe even lampshade how Oolong has stopped being a main character, ever since they defeated Pilaf.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#88078: Oct 11th 2018 at 8:03:50 PM

[up][up] Both of those are completely throaway moments.

I enjoyed the Pilaf Gang's role in BOG, but aside from the start of RF they really didn't need to re-appear from there. They only really worked when used sparingly and for an actual purpose.

fasoman1996 Google "big ears" from Argentina (A.K.A. Naziland) Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
Google "big ears"
#88079: Oct 11th 2018 at 8:05:46 PM

Well, they are no different from half the cast that tends to freeload in Bulma's place

Uni cat
Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#88080: Oct 11th 2018 at 9:02:10 PM

If I had any knowledge of the King Piccolo arc, I'd totally make something where Chiaotzu's the one who becomes a long-lasting member of the Z Fighters and not Tien.

The legend has returned.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#88081: Oct 11th 2018 at 9:09:54 PM

I like the Pilaf Gang being there, but I don't like them just being there for no reason. It's emblematic of Super's general problem of wanting to have its cake and eat it to, playing characters just for the moment and then leaving them around half-finished (Son "gets the same identical plot on repeat three times throughout the series" Gohan is the other big example). The bit where they kidnap Pan and the scene where they tag along in Trunks' math class are my favorite scenes with them, because it both gives them a fun in to the characters' present world and in the later case shows they have potential to do fun things with the current characters.

If they're going to be plotting to take over the world but constantly failing while the characters don't even notice, that's funny. Don't just one-and-done it, do it. If they're going to be Satellite Characters for Trunks and Goten, that's interesting, do it (but give Goten more scenes first). Whether they're mentally old enemies in kids' bodies or kids with old enemy memories, give us some establishment, play with it a little. If Trunks and Mai are going to be a thing, sure it's a pill to swallow, but fans are likely more squicked because its constantly tossed at us in the form of coy hints while awkwardly avoiding the elephant in the room rather than just following through already. If Pilaf and the Gang are going go be a part of the plot, have them be a part of the plot. So what if they're too weak to be involved when fighting gods. That's the joke. It worked for Hercule. It's funny. Do something!

Super gets a lot of flak for not executing its ideas that well, but in the Pilaf Gang's case they're not really being executed at all. They're just... there. And that's a bit of a rant, for which I apologize, but again I see the Pilaf Gang as being a very quintessential example of where Super's flaws lie and where I hope the franchise improves in the future. There's just so much half-assing there.

There's almost a sense that Super introduced a whole grouping of character around Trunks in the first half of the series (and Goten, debatably) that they never had any intention of doing anything with.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Oct 11th 2018 at 10:13:14 AM

fasoman1996 Google "big ears" from Argentina (A.K.A. Naziland) Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
Google "big ears"
#88082: Oct 11th 2018 at 10:17:15 PM

Really, has any post-namek character had any development in Super? I feel that side of the cast tends to get shafted the most.

Except 17 i guess.

Uni cat
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#88083: Oct 11th 2018 at 10:20:28 PM

Amusingly I wouldn't necessarily call how 17 acts now development persay.

Its just how he is now, sure you can attribute to his current state of being from his past experiences but it doesn't really feel he's underwent personal growth exactly.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#88084: Oct 12th 2018 at 5:50:49 AM

It's the halfway measures moreso than the lack of attention that's the problem.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Oct 12th 2018 at 5:51:48 AM

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#88085: Oct 12th 2018 at 6:54:18 AM

I could be wrong, and maybe I'm imagining it because of bias or missing something or whatever, but actually, looking through the manga. I can't quite tell when precisely it stops being a gag manga? And I think part of it is that it never really stopped on a structural level? The jokes started getting replaced with dramatic moments and fight scenes, but the basic narrative structure and storybeats and pacing of set-ups to punchlines stayed mostly the same.

It's probably why the Writing by the Seat of Your Pants and changing who the main villain and who the main hero were supposed to be so many times in a row basically worked. There was a fundamental irreverence to the story structure that never really left.

kn83 Since: Dec, 2010
#88086: Oct 12th 2018 at 8:57:28 AM

Dragonball pretty much stopped being a gag manga the moment Mercenary Tao shows up.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#88087: Oct 12th 2018 at 9:05:19 AM

Nah, the gags never left. They just became aspects of the fights and the power scaling.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#88088: Oct 12th 2018 at 9:52:44 AM

Yeah. There was still a lot of humour in the battles.

Though I'd say it's the Piccolo arc where the jokes really started getting pushed back, but even past that, the humour didn't die out (one arc later, we have all the stuff with Shen / Hiro / Kami, and also the return of Chi-chi.

But yeah, I definitely agree with unnoun that Toriyama never really left that Gag manga mentality. We've all stated he's a Gag Manga writer at heart, and it's even been pointed out that he is very particular about the jokes and puts them ahead of most other things.

How good is that? That depends on how you feel about certain things.

Edited by HandsomeRob on Oct 12th 2018 at 10:54:16 AM

One Strip! One Strip!
Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#88089: Oct 12th 2018 at 12:36:17 PM

Even in the most serious parts, there's the Ginyu Force, Krillin, and Hercule.

The legend has returned.
fasoman1996 Google "big ears" from Argentina (A.K.A. Naziland) Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
Google "big ears"
#88090: Oct 12th 2018 at 12:42:39 PM

Ah yes, i remember when the comical character Krillin got killed and everyone laughed.

Except Goku. And Gohan. And his wife that one time in GT.

Uni cat
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#88091: Oct 12th 2018 at 12:56:19 PM

Early DB was noticeably a lot more grounded than most gag manga, which might be why the difference isn't as prounounced in later arcs.

Kamiccolo Since: May, 2018
#88092: Oct 12th 2018 at 3:41:19 PM

The Saiyan arc is probably the most serious arc. There's a tone of dread throughout and I can't remember a single instance of humor besides some of the scenes on Kaio's planet, which are very brief.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#88093: Oct 12th 2018 at 3:43:50 PM

[up][up]

I'll have to take your word for it, because the only other Gag Manga I know much about is Dr. Slump, and that's pretty over the top with its jokes...also from what little I've seen.

One Strip! One Strip!
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#88094: Oct 12th 2018 at 4:32:40 PM

Yajirobe died in the Anime bad future, looks like Toei forgot about that.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#88095: Oct 12th 2018 at 4:33:39 PM

Wait who was that? tongue

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#88096: Oct 12th 2018 at 6:40:59 PM

Apparently Future Yajirobe survived because Korrin gave him the last of the Senzu Beans.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#88097: Oct 12th 2018 at 7:13:50 PM

Korrin left the tower?

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Envyus Since: Jun, 2011
kn83 Since: Dec, 2010
#88099: Oct 12th 2018 at 7:51:49 PM

Future Yajirobe getting killed by the Androids was just filler. I guess that's why Toei ignored it.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#88100: Oct 12th 2018 at 7:53:58 PM

They didn't ignore it - Trunks thought Yajirobe was killed, and Yajirobe was like "Nah, I just went into hiding".

The Super anime is at least consistent with the stuff Toei added.


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