Also I found this video by Totally Not Mark critiquing how Toyotaro draws the manga.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5uscyx0OpU
I think he makes some interesting points. The basis of his critiques is that Toyotaro has a problem with pacing & composition, that he essentially draws too much making his pages feel bloated and lack focus. He even brings up an interview where Toriyama offered advice to Toyotaro about his fight scenes where he recommended that he should fret less & cut some corners in his paneling, meaning less is more basically.
Any thoughts anyone?
I am not an expert on these things. I dabbled in art class in high school but I am much of an artist to give an in depth opinion on it.
"Mai waifu."![]()
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No one would want to waste a wish on Android 18. She dying would only make Krillin unhappy.
As for long term repercussions, its hard to say. But hey, somehow you can make up that a bald midget getting kissed on the cheek by a cute robogirl kickstarted a series of events that saved u7 from being Ret-Gone
Uni catFor the name "Arcosian" pretty sure that name came up in Goku training with King Kai and King Kai doing exposition.
Same as the god of the Saiyans wiping them out for their wickedness, or the Saiyans and Tuffles fighting and the Tuffles inventing scouters and using technology against the Saiyans.
The Arcosians made a deal with the Saiyans, space travel technology in return for the Saiyans helping to conquer planets. Reminds me vaguely of the Planet Trade Organization.
Toriyama mentioned the Tuffles and the Saiyans fighting, and the Tuffles making Scouters in an interview, so that's one bit of that exposition filler with King Kai that apparently counts.
The god of Planet Vegeta wiping out the Saiyans and the planet with a meteor didnt happen, but the story sounds vaguely like the original Super Saiyan God's crusade against the evil Saiyans. With the way history and mythology work, those two stories getting conflated and the details getting confused makes some sense to me.
Freeza in the Broly movie seems to be making 1st Contact with Vegeta, and he already has spaceships.
...And Scouters, which makes no sense with the Tuffles thing, unless maybe the Tuffles were part of the PTO?
Either way, though. Two out of three of the weird backstory exposition dumps from that bit of King Kai filler have sort of kinda come back in some way.
...I have no idea if the name "arcosian" was from the original Toei filler in Japan or the English dub though.
And, like. If Toei got the concept of "After wiping out the Tuffles, the Saiyans got space tech from some other race they were partnered with" from some of Toriyama's proto plans for Freeza and Namek I doubt it was entirely or fully sketched or fleshed out.
But at that point, in the Saiyan Saga proper when that filler was aired, it seemed like the Saiyans were just a species that conquered and sold planets. Them having help or a partnership or alliance of any kind sorta flat-out contradicted the manga.
But then Freeza happened and the manga contradicted itself in that same way.
The Arcosians in that filler dont look like Freeza or any of the species in the PTO.
And, in hindsight, Freeza being so strong makes him recruiting the Saiyans make no sense. Why does he need the monkeys when he can wipe out any species he wants himself. Or get his dad to do it. Or Ginyu. Or Zarbon or Dodoria. Or Cui. Or, fuck, maybe even Appule.
The implication in the filler with the Arcosians was that the Saiyans needed the Arcosians for tech, and the Arcosians needed the Saiyans for muscle. Which isn't the relationship the Saiyans have with Freeza per se.
But the relationship the Saiyans have with Freeza also makes nearly no sense anyway, so.
Like, if Freeza is so scared of the Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan God, why does he keep them around to begin with?
My issue, frankly, is how compressed the timeline seems to be. There's a way to make it make sense. It would involve a lot more worldbuilding and more generations between events. Like, our Vegeta's dad being the one to wipe out the Tuffles makes no sense. Unless he was like, 100 years old when he had our Vegeta.
If the Saiyans made contact with the Arcosians a long time ago, before King Cold and Freeza were born, and all the Arcosians/Freeza Race at the time were weaker than the Saiyans were. The Saiyans and Arcosians were the founders of this "partnership" that was the Planet Trade Organization. Them and maybe whatever species Appule is, there seem to be a bunch of them in the organization's ranks.
Then King Cold is born as a mutant with a power level of. Less than 120,000,000, but close to that. And Freeza is born "from his father alone" with a power level of exactly 120,000,000. And what started as an equal partnership becomes a lot less equal.
The Saiyans are kept around as a legacy of that original contract and partnership despite no longer being necessary, until one day Freeza gets paranoid because of all the old Saiyan legends and myths floating around and decides it isn't worth having them around anymore.
All of that would basically make a degree of sense, to me.
EDIT: Like, if we want to factor in Episode of Bardock, which some don't, but. I weirdly like:
1: Not Bardock being the "Legendary Super Saiyan" but Time Breaker Bardock. Mira and Towa trying to nab him and missing is funny to me.
2: The basic idea of Chilled as a member of Freeza's family that got killed by a Super Saiyan.
Now, the question is what was Chilled's power level. If King Cold was a mutant, and he was the only one with an abnormally large power level.
If we factor in the Bardock Father of Goku special, Bardock in base was 10,000 and fifty times that is 500,000, so Chilled is less than that.
But Toriyama says Bardock never went past low-class, so Raditz. 1200 times 50 is 60000. Stronger than any of the Saiyans, but weaker than Vegeta would be as a Great Ape.
So that, to me, seems like a decent balance of power between the Saiyans and Freeza's race before the birth of Cold (B.C.)
Edited by unnoun on Oct 10th 2018 at 10:23:46 AM
Is Frieza actually scared of the Super Saiyan legend? Vegeta keeps saying Frieza is scared of it but I don't remember any actual indication that Frieza gave a damn.
Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.@LSBK: And that's just acknowledged at the very beginning of the arc, the characters want to fight, so they choose to let it happen.
I actually agree with what MistareFusion said one time: at the beginning they want to fight, but when Gero goes to awaken 17 and 18, they're all like, " Oh no! We have to stop him!". Then, when Cell reveals he can become perfect by absorbing the androids, they're like, "Oh no! We have to stop him!"
In other words, their decision to not stop Dr. Gero at the beginning of the saga was actually out of character for them.
De Romanīs, lingua Latina gloriosa non fuī.![]()
In Dragon Ball Minus, Freeza specifically mentions both Super Saiyans and Super Saiyan God as reasons he's going to wipe out the Saiyans.
The latter of which almost makes sense, Beerus set his alarm for 39 years specifically because he was having premonitions about Super Saiyan God.
However the meeting between Beerus and Freeza to destroy Vegeta went, I'm imagining Beerus drowsy and sorta mumbling about the Super Saiyan God, and then just saying "sure, whatever man" when Freeza mentions destroying the planet.
Freeza knowing about Super Saiyan God specifically only makes sense if he heard it from Beerus.
But that raises the question of what Freeza and Beerus's conversations were even like.
Freeza knowing about regular base-ass Super Saiyan could be from the Saiyans themselves and their legends, or from the story of what happened to great great great great great (etc.) grandpappy (grandmammy?) Chilled.
Edited by unnoun on Oct 10th 2018 at 11:20:41 AM
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Not really, they wouldn't have gotten a fight out of stopping him early...but just because Karrot "wants" a fight doesn't mean he "wants" the villain to release more threats.
Veggie is a nut and he probsly would...if he was told they would be a challenge, but that wasn't the case so he didn't care.
Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.Seriously though, that trailer with Freeza showing up on Vegeta with his dad, multiple ships in formation, Zarbon, Dodoria and the Ginyu Force just underlines the big question that Freeza's introduction poses to the Saiyan Saga; why the HFIL did Freeza need or even want the Saiyans to work for him in the first place?
Chris Ayres in the dub version of the trailer calling them "monkeys" just makes it clear that he doesn't even like them all that much. Even from the start.
Seriously, why?
Maybe he recruits the Saiyans because they're strong compared to other species under his control, then once he hears about the Super Saiyan he kills all of them. I get the impression from the new movie that Freeza's relationship with the Saiyans is being rewritten to be the opposite of your idea to give them more history.
Kind of like this:
Freeza: "Lowly monkeys! I have heard tale of your barbaric strength and I'm impressed! Join me or die!"
Saiyans: "'Kay."
Freeza Soldier: "Hey, apparently those new recruit species have a legend about some sort of "Super Saiyan" with power rivaling your own."
Beerus: "I've been hearing premonitions about the "Super Saiyan God". Also, King Vegeta dared to disrespect me."
Freeza: "Really now? Glad I wasn't really too attached to them. Order them all back to their planet so that I may kill all of them at once."
I mean, it'd be a little anticlimactic if a legend is all it took.
Beerus's premonitions he apparently has sometimes are ridiculously unreliable according to Whis, but I guess Freeza doesn't know that, and King Cold taught him to fear and respect Beerus.
And, like. A lot of everything Raditz said has been retconned to hell and back, but if they only were doing the planet conquering thing for a bit before being wiped out, it just makes him seem like he's really bad at history.
Beerus going to sleep was a combination of his own premonitions about the "Super Saiyan God" and the Oracle Fish predicting that a worthy rival for him would appear in 39 years time. Beerus just connected the dots. Not super relevant, but I felt like it needed to be said.
Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Oct 10th 2018 at 8:51:59 AM
Admittedly, Raditz was bad at most things in hindsight, but.
When Raditz was our main source for a lot of things, the fact that he was wrong about literally everything feels sloppy.
...Mind you, not all of that can be blamed on Dragon Ball Minus. Some of that is mistakes in the original Bardock Special.
Toriyama says that Bardock's family of Bardock, Gine, Kakarot and Raditz were never together, so outside of that one line from Raditz there is zero indication from any source that Kakarot should know, specifically, who Raditz is, much less remember him. Both Dragon Ball Minus and Bardock Father of Goku seem to indicate that Raditz and Kakarot never saw each other before Raditz went to Earth, where Raditz is shocked to find out Kakarot "forgot" about him.
Does Raditz have brain damage too or something?
...Wait, holy shit, Raditz has the line:
Okay, so, even in the context of the manga that makes no fucking sense even before Freeza how the hell was that possibly a thing Kakarot could have been around to remember?? He even says the four of them only survived by being on other worlds.
Like.
Rereading the Raditz part of the manga, and what the fuck am I reading.
Even the plot holes have plot holes. In lines literally a few panels apart.
EDIT: Also, there's lines where Roshi says Gohan took in a "baby" but like. I'd call a two-or-three year old a "baby". It would not be strictly accurate, but.
Like, I'm a parent now, like Gohan was, and I think I'll always think of my kid as a baby. My baby. On some level.
Granted I didn't find them in an alien space pod.
Edited by unnoun on Oct 10th 2018 at 12:32:41 PM
Writing by the Seat of Your Pants is a powerful overarching evil in the Dragon Ball universe
Uni catRoshi says that when Gohan found Kakarot that the baby was "wild" and "untameable" at first but after hitting his head Goku was "the sweetest thing you would ever hope to see" and.
Two issues I see there, which is that wild and untameable doesn't necessarily mean genocidally murderous, which might (?) make sense with Dragon Ball Minus and the goal for Kakarot being "survival at all costs" rather than planet selling.
Which in fairness, Raditz might not have known. I dont think Bardock talked to Raditz much.
But also, the Bardock special, and all the anime stuff with Goku as a baby, usually have Goku as a pretty alright, nice baby even before hitting his head?
I mean, again, I'm a parent, and I literally do not know how you make literal babies meaner or more "wild" than they are already. They scream and cry and demand things. Babies are very selfish creatures. They sorta have to be survival and evolution-wise.
I guess maybe Gohan didnt know much about babies and he thought a baby making it's needs known was unusual, and after the brain damage Goku could just wet himself and not care. Dirty monkey boy.
I'd imagine Freeza's decision to blow up Vegeta will be related to Broly's power level as a child.
So if I had to draw a picture:
1. Freeza shows up and takes over Vegeta. Probably wants to recruit them because of their power. Saiyans probably try to rebel and get bodied and are scared into submission.
2. Saiyans begrudgingly work for Freeza. King Vegeta plans to overthrow Freeza using his son. Goku and Broly are born around the same time.
3. Word of Broly's power level gets out, King Vegeta has him banished because HIS son will save the saiyans, not Paragus'.
4. Word gets to Freeza and he freaks out because Broly is stronger than most of his foot soldiers which alerts him to how strong saiyans might be in the future and pose a threat. Initiate Operation: Purge the Monkeys.
5. Freeza convinces Beerus about the threat of the Saiyans and is given permission to blow them up. And then things play out from there as we know.
A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.Beerus thinking of the Saiyans as a threat being a reason to approve of Freeza's plan to destroy them just rubs me the wrong way.
Like, he wants the Super Saiyan God to be a rival for him.
Beerus's reason to destroy Vegeta is that he thought they were rude, and no matter how many second chances he gave them they would never shape up.
Anyway, seriously, am I wrong that Goku was still basically a sweet baby in the Bardock special and the anime? I honestly dont remember lil' Kakarot doing anything that was particularly more wild or untameable or unbaby-like in the anime.
The panel in Jaco
of lil' Kakarot in battle armor eating furiously and scowling seems to match the idea of a "wild baby" better to me. Than anything in the anime.
Especially since the Bardock special mentioned Kakarot had a power level of 2. 3 units weaker than an overweight farmer.
Seriously, can anyone who likes Kakarot being a literal naked baby explain what exactly was "wild" about him? Because until that fucking panel in Jaco, I was never sold. When I saw that panel, I went "oh, so that's what Roshi was talking about".
They showed a still image of him biting Old Gohand's hand, thrashing in a bath, and kicking...
That's wild...?
Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.Like, I didn't watch much of the Super anime version of Beerus, partly because holy shit was that animation bad, but now mostly because Beerus's personality in the Super anime is so fucking uninteresting compared to the movie and even Toyotaro's manga version.
In the movie, Beerus wants to destroy Vegeta and Freeza for being rude and bad nasty dudes, and not changing or turning around, and in the manga the planet that Beerus destroys tried to poison him, and he felt they were evil.
The movie and manga version of Beerus seems weirdly semi-moral.
Like, Beerus is capable of apologizing to Bulma for ruining her party. He's able to have fun dancing and goofing off instead of being dour and rude and menacing the entire time like he seems to be in the anime version.
But anyway, Beerus's reaction to Saiyans being threatening would be excitement and encouragement. It's what he wants. A rival and a good fight.
Aside from the biting, all of that seems mostly like pretty normal human baby. Or at least toddler. Sometimes kids dont wanna take their baths.
...Like, admittedly, that seems a lot more like toddler than literal baby. The muscle coordination and strength of literal babies isnt that good.
And even the biting, when the baby teeth start coming in. Teething sucks. Hurts. Them and you.
Edited by unnoun on Oct 10th 2018 at 1:51:07 PM
I like teething...with my adult teeth.
It feels good.
Yes, it does seem like he would've been about the age he was in Minus & Jaco.
Edited by randomness4 on Oct 10th 2018 at 10:55:08 AM
Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.Saiyan (literal) infants being born with a full mouth of teeth instead of flat toothless gums would be.
I mean, I would think Saiyan women would be boobless and flatchested, and also not mammals, because god no why would you put that near your tits, ouchies.
...Maybe Saiyan mothers are like platypi and they just sorta sweat milk.
...Saiyans being born with teeth sorta makes a degree or sense given Saiyan appetites though.
But if Saiyans aren't born with teeth, Goku biting Gohan doesnt make any sense if he's a literal baby.
Huh, fair point on that, I had never actually thought of it like that. If you want to be generous, I guess you could say actually seeing Gero's and 19's destruction first hand and realizing that the real androids were going to be way stronger might have changed perspective.
But that's an if, not a given.
I dont remember, does Vegeta seem to care much about stopping Gero from waking up the others?
When Android 20 goes to wake 17 and 18, Goku is already out of commission.
I dont remember the exact tally of votes for finding Gero and killing him ahead of time, but I could have sworn Vegeta and Goku were the main voices of opposition, and the others just sorta went along with it.

He's the only one unaccustomed to the existence of Dragon Balls so the thought never crossed his mind.
"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."