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Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#87776: Oct 5th 2018 at 4:38:25 AM

I like to think that the Saiyans working at the meat factories are an exception to Saiyan society and are actually higher up on the totem pole than most of the fighters due to how important their job is.

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Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#87777: Oct 5th 2018 at 4:48:53 AM

I like Gine in the sense that she's the only Universe 7 pure-blooded Saiyan that's nice on her own, without any amnesia or morality shifts.

The legend has returned.
Nightwire Since: Feb, 2010
#87778: Oct 5th 2018 at 5:23:52 AM

Finally, we got the Baby Vegeta that we deserve.

Really though, does anyone else thinking that Baby Vegeta is friggin' adorable?

Ikedatakeshi Baby dango from singapore Since: Nov, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Baby dango
#87779: Oct 5th 2018 at 5:35:27 AM

[up][up]What about Tarble?

Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#87780: Oct 5th 2018 at 5:35:51 AM

[up] What about Tarble?

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#87781: Oct 5th 2018 at 5:51:18 AM

And baby Vegeta with a widow's peak, as it is supposed to be.

Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#87782: Oct 5th 2018 at 6:00:29 AM

It's not much of an issue now that we've gotten more female Saiyans and their both fighters.

Not really, in the sense that it still reflects poorly on Toriyama. For example, blackface minstrel shows. You could say "it's not much of an issue now that we've gotten more black actors and they're great" and yes, it's not an issue now, but it reflects poorly of the time.

And I don't think anyone, even fans, are going to say Toriyami is exactly good with gender dynamics.

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GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: In love with love
Formerly G.G.
#87783: Oct 5th 2018 at 6:02:54 AM

Toriyama does have some strong women outside of dragon ball....according to some fans.....

"Mai waifu."
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#87784: Oct 5th 2018 at 6:04:40 AM

I mean, the original Bardock special isn't exactly a paragon of feminism, since there's still only one female Saiyan there and she's canonically the weakest of Bardock's crew by a significant margin.

fasoman1996 Google "big ears" from Argentina (A.K.A. Naziland) Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
Google "big ears"
#87785: Oct 5th 2018 at 6:08:33 AM

Well, the only consistently strong female character has always been Android 18. Power wise of course, otherwise Bulma has stayed relevant since the very beginning.

Most of the female fighters introduced later have been either Base Breaking Characters or minor characters. Except maybe 21.

Edited by fasoman1996 on Oct 5th 2018 at 10:08:16 AM

Uni cat
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#87786: Oct 5th 2018 at 6:10:17 AM

Android 21 is a walking vore fetish.

...To be fair, so were Cell and Buu.

Xeino Since: Jul, 2017
#87787: Oct 5th 2018 at 6:32:47 AM

Well, there are now also Caulifla and Kale who are treated as actual serious and respected rivals to Goku but as pointed out they are base breakers because half of the fandom hates the idea that girls should get to be Super Saiyans easily.

Edited by Xeino on Oct 5th 2018 at 6:38:34 AM

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#87788: Oct 5th 2018 at 7:00:08 AM

Toriyama does have some strong women outside of dragon ball....according to some fans.....

I mean, I dont know how much Dragon Quest and Chrono Trigger should be counted as Toriyama.

And I dont have am extensive knowledge of Dr. Slump, but I think some weird sex stuff gets in there at points.

Like the World Tournament Announcer raping someone.

And I think there's a gag where Arale wants to grow up and have big boobs or something.

For Caulifla and Kale, I mean, the tingly back thing is weird.

And, like, the fact that Caulifla, who was supposedly a prodigy, still had to learn it from Cabba (a man) is not quite the paragon example of a woman who dont need no man.

...I admit I like Android 21, which is surprising to me not just because she was a video game exclusive character but because I didn't even like her in the first two story modes of the same game.

The Android 21 Saga is the point where I can give a damn that she exists.

And, honestly, even then she's like a lot of filler or GT or movies or Super because she's a more interesting in concept than in execution.

Mind you, part of that isn't the fault of whoever came up with her for the game, but the fault of Toriyama and the Gero's son stuff. Because until that interview I never imagined Gero getting laid.

Gero as we see him is pretty obsessive and one-dimensional. The idea that he has or had any life or interiority doesn't bear out in any of his actual appearances.

The idea that he slept with someone, had a child, and then was allowed by that person to be around said child is. Mind boggling.

But then we get to Android 21 herself, and she's a scientist with the new new Red Ribbon Army and that raises so many questions. Like, was she always a scientist? Did Gero ('s computer) add cells from scientists to make her smart when she was dumb before? Did they meet as scientists? Was she in the Red Ribbon Army as a human?

So many questions.

@Bardock's character: There's a thing I like about Bardock as described in Toriyama's interview.

Of course, Bardock is a Saiyan, too, so he is warlike, but compared to other Saiyans, who are cold-hearted and of simple thoughts, he also happens to possess calm judgment and a small measure of humanity.
Because of his actions of “saving his companions“, which is rare for a Saiyan, he is greatly adored among a portion of the low-class warriors.

What I like is the "calm judgement" bit. The idea to me, especially in contrast with the "simple thoughts" of other Saiyans, is that Bardock is smarter than the average Saiyan?

...Which, actually, does go more to the Superman thing. Brilliant scientist and all. Huh.

But, like. When we see Nappa fight, he's kinda. Dumb. Easily angered. Not a lot of tactics. And he's supposed to be Elite/Mid-Class. With a lot of experience.

When we see Bardock even in the Father of Goku special, he can outwit Dodoria's goons.

Stuff that mentions the Tuffles were defeated because King Vegeta united the Saiyan clans/tribes seems to point to a King Vegeta as being smarter than the average Saiyan too.

And, Goku and Vegeta are dumbasses, but they show the ability to think tactically at points in fighting.

And, in fairness to Goku, he canonically has brain damage. Shows a lot of signs of developmental disability in humans, like when he can't recognize Yamcha after a haircut. Face blindness. And a lot of the other "dumb" things Goku does in Dragon Ball, but most of those seem like a joke as in "haw haw look at this dumb bumpkin". The not getting social cues and reading slowly and all that.

But the face blindness stands out. To me and other people. That's an actual, real thing.

Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#87789: Oct 5th 2018 at 7:23:26 AM

Oh yes. I actually find Dragon Ball (Z/Super) kind of hard to watch knowing it's the tale of a superpowered mentally handicapped man.

When was the "bump on the head made him nice" thing introduced? Was that in Z when Raditz arrived or was it from DB?

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PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#87790: Oct 5th 2018 at 7:26:50 AM

The tingly, tensed up back energy thing isn't just a Kale and Caulifla thing. According to both Cabba and Goku, that's just what Super Saiyan feels like. It's not a lame excuse to have the girls learn Super Saiyan easily, it's lore on what the physical sensation of being a Super Saiyan is.

EpicBleye drunk bunny from her bed being very eepy Since: Sep, 2014 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
drunk bunny
#87791: Oct 5th 2018 at 7:27:14 AM

[up][up]Nope. It was actually mentioned in the beginning of Dragon Ball

Edited by EpicBleye on Oct 5th 2018 at 10:29:43 AM

"There's not a girl alive who wouldn't be happy being called cute." ~Tamamo-no-Mae
MightyMatilda Mr. Clueless from New Jersey, USA Since: Jan, 2015
Mr. Clueless
#87792: Oct 5th 2018 at 7:32:09 AM

@unnoun: To be blunt, if you think it's sexist for a woman to be taught something by a man, your standards are a bit too high.

De Romanīs, lingua Latina gloriosa non fuī.
Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#87793: Oct 5th 2018 at 7:53:37 AM

It's one of those things that's a bit unfortunate in aggregate. Never a Self-Made Woman, and all.

I think the only woman in DB/Z whose success isn't derived from a man is... Fortuneteller Baba?

Keep in mind I haven't seen Super, so yeah.

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PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#87794: Oct 5th 2018 at 7:59:33 AM

I mean, there's all the Angels, and presumably Helles. Most of the female fighters in the Tournament of Power, the Kamikaze Fireballs most notably, they are actually the main inspiration to the male fighters on their team. Kale, her success in getting over her self-hatred is due to lesbian love.

Also Bulma. Like, her dad obviously started her off right with money, but she went on a big ol' adventure at the age of 16, and she made her company what it is today. She also broke time and space.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Oct 5th 2018 at 8:00:28 AM

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#87795: Oct 5th 2018 at 8:52:55 AM

I mean, the original Bardock special isn't exactly a paragon of feminism, since there's still only one female Saiyan there and she's canonically the weakest of Bardock's crew by a significant margin.

Seriously? Why would they even feel the need to say that.

And, like, the fact that Caulifla, who was supposedly a prodigy, still had to learn it from Cabba (a man) is not quite the paragon example of a woman who dont need no man.

I don't think that should be held against her or that it's sexist. Even a prodigy theoretically can't learn something she never realized existed. More to the point, once he starts explaining it to her, she figures out a faster way to trigger it (tingly back) and reaches Super Saiyan 2 well before he does.

Also note that Toei came up with the idea with Kale and finally giving us a female Super Saiyan, because Toriyama didn't even consider it at all. He then drew Caulifa on a whim to pair with Kale due to his obsession with pairs and Big Guy, Little Guy dynamics.

One Strip! One Strip!
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#87796: Oct 5th 2018 at 9:16:22 AM

To be blunt, if you think it's sexist for a woman to be taught something by a man, your standards are a bit too high.

I don't think that should be held against her or that it's sexist.

...Do you guys really think so little of me?

I honestly yhought I'd earned the right to be assumed to have a bit more nuance than that.

It's one of those things that's a bit unfortunate in aggregate. Never a Self-Made Woman, and all.

Right, that, but also it's not this super binary, black-and-white, sexist-or-not thing? There's degrees, and shades in the middle.

It's just, Cabba's role is a detail that to me makes it not this super female-empowerment feminazi misandrist power fantasy that I've heard some people say it was. Because of course some anime fans think that.

MightyMatilda Mr. Clueless from New Jersey, USA Since: Jan, 2015
Mr. Clueless
#87797: Oct 5th 2018 at 9:31:23 AM

It's a bad idea to listen to people who clearly never watched the show.

De Romanīs, lingua Latina gloriosa non fuī.
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#87798: Oct 5th 2018 at 9:47:15 AM

Reading the manga, Goku puts his hand to his hair/head/scalp and says he has a scar. We don't see it, because that anime hair is in the way, but.

I dont see a lot of dubs or guides or anything in general, outside of the panels of the manga, that mention Goku apparently has some pretty nasty visible head scarring.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#87799: Oct 5th 2018 at 9:49:48 AM

I really loved this shot in the trailer

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#87800: Oct 5th 2018 at 10:04:52 AM

Android 21 is a walking vore fetish.

21 runs into a pretty big problem that's prevalent in both the East and the West, especially but in no way limited to video games, that a lot of writers don't know how to create female villains who aren't in some way The Vamp, use sexiness as a weapon, or just wanton and lustful in general.

As for Caulifla and Kale, I'd agree that they're something of an attempt to flip the image Dragonball's other female characters tended to create, but since either the the TOP arc was uninterested in actually developing the characters they introduced or because neither Toriyama nor Toei were all that good at breaking out of their habits in writing women, the power just kind of fell into their laps rather than them growing into it.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Oct 5th 2018 at 10:05:10 AM


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