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Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#86951: Sep 13th 2018 at 4:19:08 PM

The Worf Barrage has to constantly be ineffective to count. That isn't the case for ki spam, even if there are examples where it is ineffective they are offset by effective examples.

It doesn't have a particularly different track record to other ki attacks.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#86952: Sep 13th 2018 at 4:24:58 PM

...

What effective examples of Ki Spam do we have?

I'm genuinely curious. I only recall the failures.

One Strip! One Strip!
Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#86953: Sep 13th 2018 at 4:34:45 PM

It was effective vs Zarbon. That's it.

Edit: I guess you could argue Gotenks vs Super Buu. It didn't damage him that much but it did put him on tilt.

Edited by Moth13 on Sep 13th 2018 at 7:54:17 AM

NickTheSwing Since: Aug, 2009
#86954: Sep 13th 2018 at 5:13:26 PM

Gohan emitted a large number of Ki Blasts to kill a bunch of Cell Jr.s I think.

Guy01 Since: Mar, 2015
#86955: Sep 13th 2018 at 5:15:56 PM

17 and 18 get a lot of mileage out of spamming ki blasts actually.

Ok, who let Light Yagami in here?
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#86956: Sep 13th 2018 at 5:16:00 PM

No he didn't...just beamed at two of them.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#86957: Sep 13th 2018 at 5:18:05 PM

Goku pushed Cell to use a barrier with a ki blast barrage. Super Buu also used one to devastate the Earth's population.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#86958: Sep 13th 2018 at 5:25:14 PM

Vegeta was also toying with Gohan using them. And he was able to stall Boo for a bit with them, it was Boo regenerating behind him that let him escape the blasts.

There aren't actually used a whole lot.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#86959: Sep 13th 2018 at 5:29:26 PM

Does Krillen killing all those Saibamen count?

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#86960: Sep 13th 2018 at 5:32:21 PM

I would count Vegeta vs Kid Buu as a failure for the technique myself. Vegeta tried using the move and got wrecked. Goku vs Cell is a more impressive showing than usual, but in the end it just didn't cut it.

There was also Gohan using it on Frieza for a more straightforward example.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#86961: Sep 13th 2018 at 5:33:14 PM

I feel like there's a difference between being a finisher and being impressive/useful.

Edited by LSBK on Sep 13th 2018 at 7:33:09 AM

Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#86962: Sep 13th 2018 at 5:34:05 PM

I mean, the move didn't succeed because Cell ending up shielding, and afterwards Goku was out of energy.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#86963: Sep 13th 2018 at 5:36:18 PM

It still pushed Cell back for a bit though, even with Goku being way weaker than him.

Basically the same criteria has people calling Tien's New Spirit Cannon cool.

Edited by LSBK on Sep 13th 2018 at 7:50:33 AM

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#86964: Sep 13th 2018 at 5:38:22 PM

Goku and Cell were pretty evenly matched in that fight, with Cell maybe having a slight advantage. I thought it was pretty clear that Cell was holding back to Goku's level to enjoy fighting Goku.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#86965: Sep 13th 2018 at 5:39:23 PM

Really feels like you're ignoring context in both of those examples and only looking at the final result.

Vegeta didn't get wrecked because he used the technique. He was outclassed, and at least held off Boo with it. If Boo had just powered through the technique it'd be one thing, but he used his regeneration to get around it. What other technique would have helped?

Against Cell, not only did Goku manage to pressure him, but his barrier also left Cell exhausted after it, so the technique still had an impact even though it was blocked.

[up] It was a noticeable advantage. He was able to run rings around Goku when demonstrating his speed.

Edited by Saiga on Sep 13th 2018 at 10:39:50 PM

Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#86966: Sep 13th 2018 at 5:50:44 PM

Saying that beam spam held off Kid Buu is being extremely generous. It was maybe two panels and Buu reforming behind him is more about Buu being a jokester than actually being pressured.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#86967: Sep 13th 2018 at 6:07:40 PM

That's making a big assumption.

That's not being generous, it's just what happened. No-one is saying it's the best thing ever but it's just like any other technique, it has its uses.

Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#86968: Sep 13th 2018 at 6:23:23 PM

I'm just saying that if you want to argue that beam spam doesn't deserve its reputation as a move that gets constantly shrugged off right before the user gets their ass kicked, Vegeta vs Kid Buu is not one to point to.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#86969: Sep 13th 2018 at 6:24:56 PM

The Worf Barrage has to constantly be ineffective to count.

Untrue. The Worf Barrage can be a single attack, an isolated incident, et al. It can even be a single instance of an attack that in other situations is effective, though depending on the execution that can sometimes skew more towards So Last Season.

All that's required for it to be an example of the trope is that is flashy, seemingly powerful attack that when the smoke clears does zero damage to the target, thus showing how powerful the target it.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Sep 13th 2018 at 6:27:17 AM

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#86970: Sep 13th 2018 at 6:46:00 PM

You should probably completely re-write the trope description, then.

An attack qualifying for The Worf Barrage if it's used that way once calls into question why such a trope needs to exist.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#86971: Sep 13th 2018 at 6:48:06 PM

A good example of a single usage of The Worf Barrage is UIO Goku using the same Kamehameha that eliminated Kafla on Jiren and Jiren easily overpowering it.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#86972: Sep 13th 2018 at 6:52:02 PM

[up][up] Having just reread the trope description when posting that, in order to verify it, there's zero need for that.

From the description itself:

Much like The Worf Effect, The Worf Barrage is that attack that's supposedly all-powerful, ultra-destructive, and super-awesome, but in reality only serves as the "that" in No One Could Survive That!, because they just did.

There's nothing there, nor in any of the paragraphs in the description, that specifies that it must be a single thing used in multiple instances. This is because the trope is a situational trope, describing a kind of scene, rather than describing a kind of item The only thing in the description that could lend itself that way, but only arguably, is this passage:

This is the thing (usually the first attack after a monster crosses the Godzilla Threshold) that proves how resilient the Big Bad or Monster of the Week is. Almost always produces large amounts of smoke or debris, allowing the hero to think the enemy was killed, before his shielded silhouette starts to show through. At least you hope it's shielded...

Which, while referring to the trope in the general sense, could be misunderstood to mean a specific thing. I doesn't specifically do so, but I could understand the confusion. But it's immediately followed by this clarifying passage, so that's far less of a problem than it would be on its own.

The trope is essentially the contrapositive of The Worf Effect — that trope shows how powerful a new force is by its defeating the strongest cast member, while this trope shows how powerful a new force is by a cast member failing to defeat it.

In short, the issue isn't in the actual trope description. In this case, what's actually the issue is in its usage and overall perception.

People tend to see it as the weapon equivalent of The Worf Effect: the Worf Effect is also a situational trope rather than a character trope, but is often used as a character trope (that is to say, it's often used as "this character is The Worf of the show" where the trope - while accommodating for that definition, and indeed having the bulk of its examples be that way - is for clarity purposes a more general "this is a situation where a character is the Worf," due to the former being far less useful as a trope description). As such, people often use the Worf Effect as the equivalent of a character trope (that is, this weapon is a Worf weapon) when the trope itself is actually more general.

An attack qualifying for The Worf Barrage if it's used that way once calls into question why such a trope needs to exist.

The short answer to that is because a trope specifically about weapons that fit that description rather than scenes that use that device is specific to the point of being useless as to relate the thing it's trying to describe. It's the same reason The Worf Effect, which iirc used to be simply The Worf, was changed as well.

There's little need for such specificity in a plot device that is, simply, far more universal than such technicality demands.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Sep 13th 2018 at 7:09:30 AM

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#86973: Sep 13th 2018 at 7:13:54 PM

The oopening paragraph completely contradicts the idea of the technique being useful in other instances.

The description is also clear that it DOES refer to a distinct attack/weapon, which helps distinguish it as a concept.

The Worf Effect was also named for a character who filled this role constantly, and I disagree with expanding it to any instance of a character worfing because there is a pretty notable difference between using it once and having a character specifically fill that role. Worf and Wolverine are infamous for it and I think that should be recognized.

There is similarly a big difference between a normally-effective attack failing and an attack/weapon constantly failing for suspense.

Not every attack that worfs deserves to be labelled as The Worf Barrage.

Edited by Saiga on Sep 14th 2018 at 12:24:48 AM

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#86974: Sep 13th 2018 at 7:18:42 PM

Depends. Are you taking the "all powerful, etc, etc" bit literally? Because you're not supposed to. The trope isn't specifically about Infinity Plus One attacks failing. That part is embellishment - or more accurately, that part is meant to key the fact of that trope that the attack used is flashy, huge and supposedly powerful.

It's the kind of exaggeration for fun/humor that's rather, and as always it's acceptable as long as its mitigated by the clarity of the rest of the description. Which, as I've noted, it does both in the paragraph that part is included in and the rest of the description itself. But if you feel it's a step too far, feel free to remove that small part.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Sep 13th 2018 at 7:25:05 AM

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#86975: Sep 13th 2018 at 7:24:10 PM

I'm talking about the idea that the attack only gets used in No One Could Survive That!!.

If it also gets used effectively, it doesnt fit

Also, referring to the trope as 'that attack' means it is referriing to an object, not a situation

Edited by Saiga on Sep 14th 2018 at 12:27:34 AM


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