TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Dragon Ball

Go To

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#86926: Sep 12th 2018 at 10:24:32 PM

Kid Buu is weaker than Fat Buu. Aside from Mr. Buu, Kid Buu is the weakest Buu.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#86927: Sep 12th 2018 at 10:29:58 PM

[up][up] Well I'd also say that but this is about what would work better in the story we did get

[up] That interpretation does not fit the fights each had with Goku

Fat Boo socked Goku directly in the face without injuring him. He remained uninjured for their fight. Pure Boo gave Goku multiple injuries and was harder to beat than Goku anticipated Fat Boo would be.

DarkHunter from New Mexico Since: Jan, 2001
#86928: Sep 12th 2018 at 10:30:36 PM

If he's weaker, why did Kid Buu effortlessly kick Fat Buu's ass during the final fight on the Kai world? Fat Buu could barely land a finger on him.

EDIT: Hang on, you're making a distinction between Fat Buu before having his evil expelled and afterwards aren't you? Strikes me as kind of pointless but okay.

Edited by DarkHunter on Sep 12th 2018 at 11:31:41 AM

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#86929: Sep 12th 2018 at 10:31:47 PM

Because that wasn't a complete Fat Buu.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#86930: Sep 12th 2018 at 10:38:14 PM

I mentioned last page my interpretation that Fat Buu never went all out in any of his fights, and only powered up to maximum right before expelling Evil Buu.

Additionally, there's Goku's wording about both. He says he might have been able to beat Fat Buu, but he's very confident that he could've beaten Kid Buu.

Ikedatakeshi Baby dango from singapore Since: Nov, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Baby dango
#86931: Sep 12th 2018 at 10:41:37 PM

Pure Buu + two supreme Kais = Fat Buu

Fat Buu = Evil Buu(evil part of Supreme Kais+Pure Buu who is probably pure evil) + Good Buu

Super Buu = Fat Buu but doesn't have the Kai's morality restricting him

Mr Buu = the supreme Kais plus Fat Buu's memories, but can't be separated due to being digested.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#86932: Sep 12th 2018 at 10:42:53 PM

[up]Pretty much.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Sep 12th 2018 at 10:45:11 AM

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#86933: Sep 12th 2018 at 10:51:20 PM

Actually, I see it a little differently. Here's my Buu Math:

South Kaioshin > Dai Kaioshin
Buff Buu = Kid Buu + South Kaioshin
Fat Buu = Kid Buu + South Kaioshin - Dai Kaioshin
Evil Buu = Kid Buu + 1/2 South Kaioshin
Good Buu = Dai Kaioshin + 1/2 South Kaioshin
Super Buu = Kid Buu + South Kaioshin - 1/2 Dai Kaioshin
Mr. Buu = either South Kaioshin + Dai Kaioshin or just Dai Kaioshin, it depends on how strong you like to think South Kaioshin and Dai Kaioshin were and how much you're willing to believe that Super Buu temporarily reverting to Buff Buu before turning into Kid Buu was South Kaioshin dying inside Buu.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#86934: Sep 12th 2018 at 10:52:20 PM

I know what your interpretation isz but here you just stated it like it was known fact that Fat Boo was stronger.

I disagree that Fat Boo was just suppressed. He wasn't able to harm Goku, so if he had more power he should have used it.

Fat Boo's power is lowered by the Dai Kaioshin. I believe that the less restrained he is, the more power he can access, so his power spikes right before expelling Pure Evil Boo because his anger is overcoming his restraint. That'd also be why Evil Boo is more powerful despite being made of the same parts.

So I don't find that as relevant as the actual fights, and Pure Boo obviously fared much better.

Edit: Also, Pushover, you're wrong about what Goku says about his certainty toward Fat and Pure Boo. He tells Vegeta he would have been able to defeat Fat Boo (no ambiguity), but never says he could definitely beat Pure Boo (he says Vegeta "might not get [his] turn") and after actually fighting Boo realizes he underestimated him - before he realizes that SS 3 is so shit.

Vegeta also says he underestimated Pure Boo, and after that when he's actually getting his ass whupped by Boo he's shocked by how strong Boo is. And he's fought Fat Boo before.

Edited by Saiga on Sep 13th 2018 at 4:01:24 AM

Ikedatakeshi Baby dango from singapore Since: Nov, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Baby dango
#86935: Sep 12th 2018 at 10:57:48 PM

[up][up]Seems overly complicated. Why is super Buu -1/2 Dai Kaioshin? And South Kaioshin being split perfectly in half despite not being significantly evil?

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#86936: Sep 12th 2018 at 10:59:55 PM

[up][up]That's how I always figured it worked.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#86937: Sep 12th 2018 at 11:00:49 PM

South Kaioshin being split in half is for convenience. I'm not going to try and estimate how much evil lies within his heart. Super Buu being weakened by half is also for convenience. It's just to show that Super Buu is less weakened by Dai Kaioshin than Fat Buu is but not as little as Buff Buu is. Going by the fact that Goku and Vegeta describe Buff Buu as stronger than Super Buu, Super Buu still has to be weakened by Dai Kaioshin somewhat.

@Saiga That's still equivalent to Fat Buu holding back. It's just that Fat Buu holds back his evil at the same time as his power.

Goku's very certain that he could've beaten Kid Buu in one blast if he was at full power.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Sep 12th 2018 at 11:03:02 AM

Kamiccolo Since: May, 2018
#86938: Sep 12th 2018 at 11:07:18 PM

I disagree that Fat Boo was just suppressed. He wasn't able to harm Goku, so if he had more power he should have used it.
Goku punched him literally x20 as many times and wasn't able to harm him either. Neither were taking it seriously. Nor did fatso seem at all alarmed that Goku tanked that first punch. He definitely doesn't try to use his Candy Beam, which is the first resort of all Buus faced with an overwhelmingly superior opponent.

Anyway, given that Piccolo said Goku should have been able to beat Fat Buu after sensing their fight, and Goku only shot down that suggestion because of SS3's stamina problems, it seems most likely that Goku and Pure Buu were stronger than Fat Buu, but Fat Buu was close enough to believably hold his own for the minute or two it would take for SS3 to crap out (keep in mind, Goku's fight with Pure Buu lasts less than a single chapter and about as long as Vegeta's short "you're #1" monologue lasts). His later fight with Pure Buu certainly fits this power scale, as he's actually able to get in a few good hits and last longer than Goku against an angrier Pure Buu, but is eventually overwhelmed and nearly killed. It also fits Daizenshuu 2's Adventure History saying that Goku's Super Saiyan 3 "possesses power which can fight evenly with even Majin Buu" (while recapping Volume 40).

I honestly don't think Mr. Buu is any weaker than Fat Buu. You can justify why that is with in-universe logic, but the simplest route to take is that everyone both in and out of universe treats them as the exact same character. Down to Vegeta worrying that he'll produce an evil Buu and Goku in Super saying he gets stronger with anger.

What's absolutely undisputable though is that Pure Buu and Super Buu are both stronger than any level of power that Fat Buu can actually use. That's outright stated both in and out of universe.

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P4.2-7

Kaioshin: “….Yes…the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption… has returned once again to the way it was… he has no self-control whatsoever… he has become evil itself…”

Daizenshuu 7, Character Dictionary

Buu, Majin: A magical being created by the wizard Bibidi. History: He killed the North and West Kaioshin, absorbed the South Kaioshin, and then when he took in the gentle heart of the Dai-Kaioshin, his ferociousness and power were somewhat weakened.

Daizenshuu 7, Character Dictionary

Dai-Kaioshin: The leader of the Kaioshins Special Characteristics: A character who long ago was absorbed by Buu, weakening Buu’s power.

Chapter: 486 (DBZ 292), P2.2-6

Piccolo: “…Have you noticed? …This change in Majin Boo’s ki...

Chapter: 488 (DBZ 294), P5.5-6

Piccolo: “It’s not just Buu's appearance…Everything about him is definitely greater than before…”

Daizenshuu 2, Adventure History

"Majin Buu briefly became gentle through Satan's persuasion, but because of wicked people he achieved a super power-up."

Edited by Kamiccolo on Sep 12th 2018 at 11:18:38 AM

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#86939: Sep 12th 2018 at 11:07:56 PM

It's not Fat Boo holding back if it's not him doing it. Whether he can consciously access the power is very relevant.

See my edit: Goku is confident he can beat Fat, not Pure Boo. When he makes his comment about charging up to beat Pure Boo he is saying what he needs, not even that it will definitely work.

Furthermore, he never thought he needed someone to stall on his behalf to beat Fat Boo. His plan to destroy Pure Boo in one-shot was a back up when he failed to beat him in the way he expected to beat Fat Boo.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#86940: Sep 12th 2018 at 11:11:44 PM

@Kamiccolo All of those quotes are referring to the Dai Kaioshin lowering Buff Buu's power, not Kid Buu's.

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#86941: Sep 13th 2018 at 7:41:33 AM

before throwing Beam Spam at Goku. Goku's internal monologue then notes "Dang, I didn't hurt him at all. And he used Vegeta's move, so he learns quickly!".

i love that beam spam is officially vegeta's move

I honestly don't think Mr. Buu is any weaker than Fat Buu. You can justify why that is with in-universe logic, but the simplest route to take is that everyone both in and out of universe treats them as the exact same character. Down to Vegeta worrying that he'll produce an evil Buu and Goku in Super saying he gets stronger with anger.

Isnt there a thing in Online where Majins can turn into Kid Buu again?

...And didnt Toriyama say that Mr. Buu still does the thing of long periods of hibernation like Buu always does and that's why he's useless in Super?

...Now I'm curious, can Mr. Buu just. Become Super Buu/Pure Evil Buu/Kid Buu again?

But then what about how Kid Buu's soul got reincarnated into Uub?

Like, I guess Piccolo Jr. is somehow the reincarnation of Piccolo Daimao, even though Daimao was born from the splitting of the Nameless Namek.

Buu raises a lot of questions about the nature of identity and souls in Dragon Ball.

Edited by unnoun on Sep 13th 2018 at 11:11:12 AM

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#86942: Sep 13th 2018 at 8:34:38 AM

Beam Spam

A Vegetarian trademark.

So official that in all the BT games all versions of him has it as one of his supers and he's often one of the characters who can throw 10 regular ki blast instead of 5.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#86943: Sep 13th 2018 at 8:42:14 AM

The fights I counted as Goku's victory being contingent on assistance were: Boss Carrot (of all people), Raditz, Vegeta (first fight), Ginyu and Kid Buu.

You may have noticed I didn't count King Piccolo or Freeza. King Piccolo I haven't read in a while, but while Tien does help in that fight he also becomes a hostage so I sort of felt it was iffy. You could count that as an assisted win.

But for Freeza, the allies didn't contribute anything to the actual serious fight. After Goku got there, they didn't do anything, except for Piccolo buying time for the Spirit Bomb which did almost no damage. The only way you could argue it was an assisted win is by saying that it was Krillin's death which forced Goku to Super Saiyan, which is true, but I don't think is enough to make it assisted.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#86944: Sep 13th 2018 at 9:07:19 AM

If Piccoro didn't assist for the Spirit Bomba, Kakarrot would've died...then they would've died.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#86945: Sep 13th 2018 at 9:41:46 AM

Yamcha: "Leave Jiren to me."

Edited by Moth13 on Sep 13th 2018 at 12:41:18 PM

Kamiccolo Since: May, 2018
#86946: Sep 13th 2018 at 12:08:15 PM

i love that beam spam is officially vegeta's move
No shame in it. Beam Spam was always very effective whenever they used it in the manga, usually either defeating the foe or requiring a specialized defense (e.g. barrier). The exceptions were Vegeta vs Cell and Freeza vs Goku, but in both cases the person doing the No-Sell was so strong that nothing really would have worked. It's filler that had it being used for The Worf Barrage.

Edited by Kamiccolo on Sep 13th 2018 at 12:09:53 PM

Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#86947: Sep 13th 2018 at 12:13:50 PM

Vegeta used it on Cell to no effect twice.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#86948: Sep 13th 2018 at 12:58:03 PM

Was that in the Manga...

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#86949: Sep 13th 2018 at 2:08:14 PM

[up][up] Can't help it when the enemy is far stronger than you.

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#86950: Sep 13th 2018 at 3:09:06 PM

Well, yes, but it's still the Worf Barrage in that case. Even Worf, the trope namer, was strong it was just that till he got to DS 9 whatever he punched or shot at was stronger.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"

Total posts: 130,800
Top