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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#86901: Sep 12th 2018 at 6:16:16 PM

I say, give everyone else the assist, but not Vegeta.

The only situation where I say Vegeta should have gotten the win (and then didn't) is with Golden Frieza.

He has more reason to want to kill the latter than Goku (since he's more tied to Saiyan culture and such, and he lived under Frieza's thumb), and also he wasn't just fighting for fun or pride (which Goku should not have been fucking doing in the first place, especially with someone who he knows is willing to try and shoot him in the back).

Dragon Ball Z: Resurrection 'F' is one of the few situations where Vegeta going first would have actually been the better choice, because once he had Frieza beat, he'd have finished the fight rather than dropping his guard and getting shot.

One Strip! One Strip!
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#86902: Sep 12th 2018 at 6:24:31 PM

At what scale does Goku's 'I just want a good fight!' thing stop being endearing and become a monstrously selfish thing?

Because he literally got the world destroyed

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EpicBleye drunk bunny from her bed being very eepy Since: Sep, 2014 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
drunk bunny
#86903: Sep 12th 2018 at 6:25:03 PM

when super happened

"There's not a girl alive who wouldn't be happy being called cute." ~Tamamo-no-Mae
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#86904: Sep 12th 2018 at 6:25:57 PM

I'd say when he stopped being able to prioritize other things above it.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#86905: Sep 12th 2018 at 6:26:51 PM

Similar question for his thing about trying to force his sons to fight terrifying monsters in his stead

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LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#86906: Sep 12th 2018 at 6:27:16 PM

I mean it's kind of hard to use "the World could get destroyed" as much of a deterrent in Dragon Ball. Even assuming the Earth Dragon Balls go away as a result, there's still the Namekian Balls.

It's like "Oh no Earth blew up let's just go buy a new one."

Edited by LordVatek on Sep 12th 2018 at 9:29:45 AM

This song needs more love.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#86907: Sep 12th 2018 at 6:28:44 PM

I mean, but not really, though? Sure, if they survive they can do that, but that the characters don't take it as a given they'll be able to survive.

Edited by LSBK on Sep 12th 2018 at 8:31:01 AM

EpicBleye drunk bunny from her bed being very eepy Since: Sep, 2014 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
drunk bunny
#86908: Sep 12th 2018 at 6:36:30 PM

Similar question for his thing about trying to force his sons to fight terrifying monsters in his stead 

Now to be fair on that one, Goku realized that he really couldn't be around forever and the Earth needed someone once he and all his friends died.

Gohan just happened to be closest to him at the time.

"There's not a girl alive who wouldn't be happy being called cute." ~Tamamo-no-Mae
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#86909: Sep 12th 2018 at 6:44:25 PM

You don't even need that, the first time. Goku couldn't beat Cell. Him being around meant fuck all, Gohan really was the only option.

Against Boo, he has a point because he's already dead and using SS 3 eats up his remaining time, but it'd still be good to deal with Boo and then worry about preparing the next generation.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#86910: Sep 12th 2018 at 6:47:16 PM

I can totally get on board with calling out Goku for springing the situation on Gohan like he did, but I can't help but roll eyes at the people who go "a real father should put their son above the world!" or other such nonsense.

Edited by LSBK on Sep 12th 2018 at 9:58:16 AM

MightyMatilda Mr. Clueless from New Jersey, USA Since: Jan, 2015
Mr. Clueless
#86911: Sep 12th 2018 at 6:55:03 PM

Sometimes I wonder how some people could think Piccolo is a better father than Goku. Then I remember that scene when Gohan's getting beat up and Piccolo apparently understand Gohan better than Goku does. Then it makes sense.

De Romanīs, lingua Latina gloriosa non fuī.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#86912: Sep 12th 2018 at 6:57:56 PM

Alright so I found a recent interview with Chris Sabat.

http://www.crunchyroll.com/anime-feature/2018/09/12/chris-sabat-on-vegetas-fear-gokus-selfishness-and-talking-to-himself

In it he talks about topics including Vegeta’s fear, Goku’s selfishness (heh nice coincidence tongue) & talking to himself.

[up] I don’t get that logic.

Edited by slimcoder on Sep 12th 2018 at 6:57:54 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#86913: Sep 12th 2018 at 7:57:11 PM

Against Boo, he has a point because he's already dead and using SS 3 eats up his remaining time, but it'd still be good to deal with Boo and then worry about preparing the next generation.

Well, from a meta perspective you could argue that Toriyama could have come up with reasons for Goku not to win that fight (if he'd thought ahead better, he could have revealed the time eating aspect and energy drain of Super Saiyan 3 during that fight and have Goku conk out right then and there).

I'm pretty sure that he just wasn't at the point where he (as in Toriyama) realized he just wanted to write Goku all the time yet.

One Strip! One Strip!
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#86914: Sep 12th 2018 at 8:06:52 PM

Good doylist reasons will never stop me from mocking Son "Can totes beat Buu" Goku

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Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#86915: Sep 12th 2018 at 8:13:17 PM

[up][up] Originally he wasn't sure he could win, which made it more understandable.

It was only later when he had to fight Pure Boo that he revealed he could have won.

If not for that, the ambiguity would have worked for a more favourable interpretation.

Conking out in that fight would work really badly for later uses of SS 3

Edited by Saiga on Sep 13th 2018 at 1:17:54 AM

Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#86916: Sep 12th 2018 at 8:13:43 PM

Small things to check, "what do you want to call Vegeta's new form" and the like.

Huh. Does this mean Super Saiyan Sparkly Blue will get a name in the dub? Trunk's rage form didn't. Or maybe it's just an internal thing. Here's hoping though.

Kamiccolo Since: May, 2018
#86917: Sep 12th 2018 at 8:28:03 PM

Originally he wasn't sure he could win, which made it more understandable.

It was only later when he had to fight Pure Boo that he revealed he could have won.

Or so he thinks. He was sweating bullets by the end of the fight while fatso was fine, and at no point did he ever manage to hurt the guy at all.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#86918: Sep 12th 2018 at 8:43:44 PM

Then I remember that scene when Gohan's getting beat up and Piccolo apparently understand Gohan better than Goku does. Then it makes sense.

Ya know what would suddenly make sense, if people payed attention to the fact that what Piccoro says doesn't match what Gohand says.

It really would make sense if more people did that.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#86919: Sep 12th 2018 at 8:50:14 PM

Yeah, Goku vs Fat Buu was not one where Goku was dominating, which is why I like the "Goku trying to save face" interpretations.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#86920: Sep 12th 2018 at 8:54:35 PM

Wasn't it said that Goku also wasn't giving it his all, since he was deliberately stalling.

If Toriyama had come up with the stamina issues ahead of time, and made Goku more aware of it (he had no idea how well it would work on earth, and couldn't be sure what would happen if he went all out since just using the form was pushing it), it could have saved a lot of trouble.

Though yeah, he didn't really do much to Buu, but I don't recall Buu really hurting him either. Any exhaustion was from maintaining SSJ 3.

Well, we only have Goku's word, so I suppose there's wiggle room for interpretation.

One Strip! One Strip!
Kamiccolo Since: May, 2018
#86921: Sep 12th 2018 at 9:02:25 PM

Wasn't it said that Goku also wasn't giving it his all, since he was deliberately stalling.
Nope, never stated. Though, given the pace of the fight, it's not an unreasonable assumption to make (the "he wasn't fighting as aggressively as he could" interpretation, not the "he was somehow suppressing power in an unstable form while sweating bullets" interpretation). But then again, Buu was pretty clearly not giving it his all either.
Though yeah, he didn't really do much to Buu, but I don't recall Buu really hurting him either
Neither inflicted any real damage on the other. When the fight began Goku grabbed a surprised Buu by the ponytail-tentacle and punched him in the face dozens of times consecutively before finishing his combo with a throw. Immediately after, we see that Buu is unharmed and smiling, before throwing Beam Spam at Goku. Goku's internal monologue then notes "Dang, I didn't hurt him at all. And he used Vegeta's move, so he learns quickly!".

Edited by Kamiccolo on Sep 12th 2018 at 9:05:16 AM

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#86922: Sep 12th 2018 at 9:31:50 PM

I thought Piccolo noted that Fat Buu was powering up a lot right before he ejected Evil Buu. I took that to mean that Fat Buu was suppressing his power the entire time he was onscreen and never went all out. My headcanon about the Buus is that they tend to hold back to a level around or just above the person they're fighting, both to taunt them and because they enjoy fighting and want to drag it out. They stop holding back if they're angry, but otherwise they just enjoy playtime.

firewriter Since: Dec, 2016
#86923: Sep 12th 2018 at 10:04:40 PM

It makes me think what would have happened if Vegeta was killed off as originally planned in the Saiyan arc. Would this mean there wouldn't be a Namek Saga and the series would stop there? Or more like Vegeta would have been an Arc Villain and Toriyama would have still gone on to have Goku face the killer of his people.

Also on the shipper side, if Vegeta wasn't there maybe Yamcha and Bulma could have finally tied the knot and have a family together.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#86924: Sep 12th 2018 at 10:19:51 PM

[up][up][up][up] But like I said - making Goku explicitly unable to beat Boo there hurts the rest of the arc.

Goku DID know of the stamina issues, it's why it ate up his time and left him exhausted. However, it's very important that he doesn't know HOW bad they are - otherwise it spoils the outcome of Gotenks vs Boo and Goku vs Pure Boo.

If Goku can't beat Fat Boo then you can't sell him as a credible opponent for an even stronger Boo.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#86925: Sep 12th 2018 at 10:22:15 PM

Admittedly, a fair response to that could be "maybe Kid Buu shouldn't have been a thing for Goku to fight".


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