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EpicBleye drunk bunny from her bed being very eepy Since: Sep, 2014 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
drunk bunny
#86701: Sep 6th 2018 at 11:57:38 AM

When has introducing a new power that should be readily used to deal with badguys ever stopped them from not using it before?

Lord knows this happened enough in Z, what with the Kaio-Ken, the Dragon Balls and wishing for immortality, and I'm sure numerous other examples.

"There's not a girl alive who wouldn't be happy being called cute." ~Tamamo-no-Mae
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#86702: Sep 6th 2018 at 12:21:09 PM

The non-use of the dragonballs really is criminal.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#86703: Sep 6th 2018 at 1:44:59 PM

They save the balls for the rezzes they need due to not being smart about using the balls

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#86705: Sep 6th 2018 at 1:55:50 PM

I'm not asking them to be optimal. I'm asking them to be consistent.

It's a rather important part of characterization that the characters have reasons behind their actions.

Edit: I'm not even sure what the Kaio-ken example is meant to refer to. Once Goku got it, he consistently used it any time it was needed, until he got a far superior power-up.

Edited by Saiga on Sep 6th 2018 at 6:59:18 PM

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#86706: Sep 6th 2018 at 4:05:03 PM

New video from Masako:

I admit, I'd love to somehow see more about the Tuffles. Seeing a race that relies on something besides HIGHER POWER LEVELS would be great. Plus, there's that Elephant in the room that is the Saiyan's wiping them out.

We had the Androids, but Toriyama didn't really fully explore the idea of an enemy using Tech to fight the Z Warriors...though the God Levels put a kibosh on that anyway.

One Strip! One Strip!
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#86707: Sep 6th 2018 at 4:17:47 PM

Part of me does and doesnt wanna know more about the Saiyan royal family, what with Toriyama saying they cared more about family than most Saiyans that weren't Bardock and Gine.

I also sorta kinda but also dont want a concrete Saiyan, history thing.

Like. They started on Universe 7's Planet Salad. Then had to leave because they fucked it up.

My theory is that. It was the original Legendary Super Saiyan, and the Super Saiyan God.

Broly is a Toriyama character now, and in his first movie that definitely isnt now, he said he was the devil. Maybe, in Saiyan terms and cosmology and myth and spirituality, that's literal and true.

The Super Saiyan God to embody the goodness of the Saiyan race, the Legendary Super Saiyan to embody their evil and destructiveness.

The original Super Saiyan God tried to wipe out the evil Saiyans but failed by running out of time.

With the way Broly gets stronger and stronger as he fights (Vegeta said it in the trailer, take it up with Chris Sabat not me), like. Maybe the Super Saiyan God let the fight drag on too long until the original Legendary Super Saiyan was unstoppable.

...Outlining this. Like, it's almost like Broly is the Saiyan antichrist, only, based on Raditz and Nappa and Vegeta, the Saiyans are a race of Satanists.

Not actual irl Satanists who are pretty chill, or Mr. Satanists, but. Like, pop culture Satanists.

...Also, saying all this reminds me of TFS Broly, where he can make a race of masochists want to find their safeword. I feel like that's what the Legendary Super Saiyan is for the Saiyans as a whole. They think they're the greatest warriors and they think they like fighting and bloodshed and getting stronger, but the Legendary Super Saiyan represents all of that, every negative aspect of Saiyan biology and culture and psychology turned up to the maximum threshold.

And in Universe 7 it destroyed them. On Planet Salad anyway. The ones that survived got to Planet Plant and then renamed it Vegeta.

Edited by unnoun on Sep 6th 2018 at 7:29:43 AM

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#86708: Sep 6th 2018 at 4:33:08 PM

And in Universe 7 it destroyed them. On Planet Salad anyway. The ones that survived got to Planet Plant and then renamed it Vegeta.

After murdering the people already living there don't forget.

One Strip! One Strip!
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#86709: Sep 6th 2018 at 4:33:49 PM

After being enslaved and starved in the wastelands by those people already living there, to be fair.

Gine and Tarble and. Frankly, the fact that Super Saiyan God exists, at all, and has been used by the Saiyans before. Means that there have always been purely good-hearted Saiyans among them.

Of course, the fact that it's apparently so rare to get six of them in one spot at a time means they have to have been pretty uncommon.

Equally, things turned out differently in Universe 6, it seems. Where they're the space rangers and protectors.

Edited by unnoun on Sep 6th 2018 at 7:35:51 AM

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#86710: Sep 6th 2018 at 4:36:57 PM

We don't know that.

It's said they were living in the wastelands, but it's never stated why.

Edit: I mean, it's not like they wouldn't have tried to take the cities if they didn't want to, because they did. There's probably a reason they weren't living with the Tuffles (like they were too big).

Edited by HandsomeRob on Sep 6th 2018 at 5:37:10 AM

One Strip! One Strip!
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#86711: Sep 6th 2018 at 4:42:54 PM

Its less that Gine & Tarble are nice & more they are extreme weaklings.

Bardock's job is to literally commit genocide & Gine seems to have no problem with it.

Their just a bunch of worthless scrubs.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#86712: Sep 6th 2018 at 4:47:55 PM

Vegeta (...our Vegeta) says they were enslaved and mistreated in one of the only places Tuffles appear.

And, like.

The question for me is how the Saiyans even got to Plant from Salad.

I cannot imagine the Saiyans building a spaceship on their own. That would be the most ramshackle rustbucket deathtrap ever.

The Legendary Super Saiyan, going from Broly's original movies, can make a forcefield bubble to protect himself in the vacuum of space, but.

See, the thing with Broly that bugs me isn't even that his ki continuously grows when transformed, it's the question of where it comes from. If he's still biologically a Saiyan, the fucker still has to eat. Eventually the transformation has to wear out. Even if it's by starving to death.

It's possible to fly very fast in this series, but the size of universe and the distances between stars and planets are absurd.

And also if the Legendary Super Saiyan was crazy enough to destroy their own planet, I don't see how anyone could survive being in a bubble with them. Also, the size of the bubble has to be considered. You'd need a viable breeding population. So. Be cramped. Especially with a raging berserker in the middle. And the more people breathing, the more oxygen they take up. Also he'd probably not so much land on a planet as smash through it.

That being the case. Spaceship it is.

Maybe the Tuffles came to them with a spaceship in return for servitude.

[up] That's not quite what Toriyama says?

Gine had a gentle personality and wasn’t cut out as a warrior, being repeatedly saved from danger by Bardock.

Like, yeah, there's being saved from danger meaning she was in danger, but.

There's no actual mention of her power level? Just her "gentle personality".

And anyway. Even pacifists can have loved ones and family in the military.

Not everyone wants to change their entire culture and way of life. Some just want to be able to be peaceful themselves.

...Also, to be even more fair, the Saiyans fighting for Frieza was why Frieza had kept them alive up until that point, so. It's not like the Saiyans as a whole had much choice.

Also, Tarble has a wife.

There's a difference between not being martially strong enough to wipe out a species and actively deciding to fuck them.

Edited by unnoun on Sep 6th 2018 at 7:53:53 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#86713: Sep 6th 2018 at 4:51:56 PM

Gohan has a gentle soul but he can still fight when he has to.

Back when Gine was working on the squads she had to be constantly saved by her big, strong husband because she was a complete incompetant scrub.

She really was weak AF.

Edited by slimcoder on Sep 6th 2018 at 4:54:31 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#86714: Sep 6th 2018 at 4:52:45 PM

Right, but that doesn't mean she wasn't nice.

By Saiyan standards, anyway.

I mean, even Gohan doesn't try to make his dad not fight.

Also, I mean.

Gohan was stronger than Cell as a Fully Powered Super Saiyan but he spent the entire time not fighting until he got saved by 16.

Maybe if 16's bomb hadn't been taken out Cell would have been gone and Gohan would have been able to get away without having to fight.

I'm sure the intent of Toriyama's statement was that her power level was low, but. None of the actual wording actually says anything about it. Just her "gentle personality" and her being "not cut out as a warrior".

Technically she could have been strong but passive.

Edited by unnoun on Sep 6th 2018 at 7:56:22 AM

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#86715: Sep 6th 2018 at 5:01:02 PM

@unnoun Hey! That's similar to a theory I had years ago that the original Super Saiyan and the original Super Saiyan God were enemies. Just swapping the original Super Saiyan with a Broly-esque Legendary Super Saiyan actually makes even more sense. We know that the original Super Saiyan God lost his battle with the evil Saiyans because the Super Saiyan God timer ran out, I could see a proto-Broly lasting that long against a Super Saiyan God and rampaging afterwards.

Also, it makes sense that the Saiyan royal family would be unique among Saiyans for caring about family, considering how much Vegeta talks about his royal bloodline, it was clearly something seen as important. Hell, based on Real Life monarchies obsessed with the bloodline, it's possible that Vegeta is the product of incest.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#86716: Sep 6th 2018 at 5:04:52 PM

[up][up] I recall Bardock saved her ass all the time.

If she was actually strong she wouldn't need saving, she would have jusr ran.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#86717: Sep 6th 2018 at 5:07:45 PM

[up][up]I mean.

It actually occurred to me recently while thinking about what Broly saying "I am the Devil" might mean if you took him literally.

Like. Dragon Ball has Demons, and a Demon King Dabura, so obviously that's not what Broly is.

But Dragon Ball does have a Super Saiyan God.

The new movie seems to have Broly, in his first appearance, up against Super Saiyan Blue (Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan) and seemingly evenly (ish) matched.

And, I could be wrong, but one of the clips seems to be Goku in the. Regular. Super Saiyan God state.

...That or Kaioken, I honestly can't tell the difference.

So. A Super Saiyan God, and a Super Saiyan Devil.

[up] Gohan didn't just run.

I'm positing a hypothetical. Gine strong, but paralyzed by indecision, so Bardock takes care of the problem for her.

Like. When Vegeta killed Zarbon, Zarbon was still stronger than Vegeta, but Vegeta used his More Dakka Beam Spam strategy to wear Zarbon down first.

The only time that actually worked and was useful for anything.

Enough hits without Gine fighting back or dodging could weaken her enough to be in peril.

I don't think this is authorial intent, but. It's a possibility I want to be true.

Edited by unnoun on Sep 6th 2018 at 8:11:45 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#86718: Sep 6th 2018 at 5:15:28 PM

A possibility I want true is for Gine to never appear or be mentioned again.

But alas it may not happen if that scene in Super Broly really is what it appears to be.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#86719: Sep 6th 2018 at 5:21:07 PM

I mean.

Don't misunderstand me, Gine being the only or main full blooded Saiyan female officially and directly created by Toriyama is galling.

But. If she's a minority even among female Saiyans. I don't mind it and actually kinda like it.

Toriyama's comments don't specify that female saiyans are in meat distribution or not cut out for battle or any of that. Just that Gine was.

And.

Gine being an explanation for Goku being good is, admittedly, not something I'm a fan of, but as an explanation for Gohan? That I like. Because Gohan has a very different temperament from both Goku and Chichi.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#86720: Sep 6th 2018 at 5:24:55 PM

Vegeta (...our Vegeta) says they were enslaved and mistreated in one of the only places Tuffles appear.

What? Where? And for that matter, HOW?

The Saiyans were fucking giants who tanked bullets! How do those tiny ass Tuffles every hope to imprison them? That's illogical...and sounds like more Saiyan whitewashing so they somehow don't look as bad even they they were geocoding planets.

If I'm wrong about this, I'll gladly admit it though.

As for Gine...I've said it before, and I'll say it again: the lone prominent female among the saiyans just happens to be a weakling who needs to be saved? C'mon Toriyama! You have an entire race of warriors, and this is how you present their women? I thought you didn't like soft females or whatever.

I mean, if Gine was just one among many, and the rest were all shown to be just as badass as the men, I'd have no objections, but the fact that Gine was the only important female Saiyan until Cauliffa and Kale showed up was rather telling.

One Strip! One Strip!
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#86721: Sep 6th 2018 at 5:25:45 PM

I'd rather not make their kindness the result of genetics.

Gohan is kind just because he's Gohan. He doesn't need to be related to some random nice grandmother for that.

And besides kids can be natuarlly born with radically different temperments from their parents.

Gohan being unlike his mother or father doesn't require any explanation.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#86722: Sep 6th 2018 at 5:26:40 PM

I'd rather not make their kindness the result of genetics.

That'd be all well and good, but genetic seem to be important for so many things with Saiyans...and Cell.

One Strip! One Strip!
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#86723: Sep 6th 2018 at 5:33:59 PM

[up][up][up]He said it in Plan to Eradicate the Saiyans.

Said it to Raichi.

fucking giants who tanked bullets

I mean, the Tuffles were using lasers, not bullets.

And, according to most of the accounts, the deciding factor of the Saiyan-Tuffle War was when the Full Moon showed up for the first time in. Either every 100 years or every 8 years. Depending on the dub.

Apparently, up to that point, the Saiyans and Tuffles were pretty evenly matched. It was the Oozaru, ten times stronger than base (and even more fucking huge, besides) that turned it into a slaughter.

...Also, according to Raichi, King Vegeta was the one who united the up till then warring Saiyan tribes and started the war. Our Vegeta's dad.

I'll be honest, I do not like how that compresses the timeline.

If our Vegeta is like, the third Vegeta, I could live with that better.

I mean, maybe the Vegetas were just a line of heads of a particular tribe, until finally a Vegeta decided to unite all the tribes to fight the Tuffles.

Honestly, my main issue is just that the idea that there was some thing of the royal family being more tightly knit when that royal family only existed for two generations just doesn't make sense. That's not something you can call a trend.

I'd rather not make their kindness the result of genetics.

Gohan is kind just because he's Gohan.

I mean. That's fair, I guess, yeah.

Still, overall, I do like the idea of a peaceful full-Saiyan like Gine? Just trying to survive and live her life in a world and culture she just doesn't quite fit in socially.

Edited by unnoun on Sep 6th 2018 at 8:39:27 AM

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#86724: Sep 6th 2018 at 5:38:08 PM

Plan to Eradicate the Saiyans is about as non-canon as you can get. It wasn't even an official special, it was a video game tie-in, the stuff said in it is about as reliable as statements made by characters in Xenoverse.

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#86725: Sep 6th 2018 at 5:40:20 PM

I mean, until Toriyama said the Tuffles invented the scouters, and inhabited Planet Plant before the Saiyans, I would think anyone would have said they're "non-canon" entirely considering everything they've been in has been "non-canon". Anime Filler, GT. The works.

I at least will take Plan to Eradicate the Saiyans over GT any day. At least that original arcade game was a functional arcade game.

It's impossible to tell, for me anyway, which of the appearances of the Tuffles most reflects Toriyama's concept of them.

And what embellishments or departures there may have been.

I will say that. The original Anime Filler had them wearing Scouters. So that sounds like what Toriyama said about them.

And, unrelatedly, other anime filler, which was also narrated by King Kai, also said that the God of the Saiyan people decided to wipe them out for their wickedness. Which sounds to me like the story of the original Super Saiyan God.

So. Some of those concepts in filler seem to me to be. Maybe probably Toriyama inspired.

Or they inspired Toriyama. Could go either way.

Edited by unnoun on Sep 6th 2018 at 8:43:49 AM


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