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PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#86676: Sep 6th 2018 at 2:02:31 AM

No, Toyotaro pretty clearly takes credit for Vegetto, and the way he described it, he added Vegetto really early in the planning of the arc. Like, the second Toyotaro read the outline, he suggested adding Vegetto, and the outline would've existed for at least a month or two before the anime even started on it.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Sep 6th 2018 at 2:03:09 AM

Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#86677: Sep 6th 2018 at 2:19:38 AM

Super Dragon Ball Heroes episode 3:

Also, the gameplay trailer for Universe Mission 4:

  • Shows off gameplay of Super Oozaru Cumber, Ozotto, Powered-Up Hatchiyack, Blue Kaioken x20 Prison Goku, Super Saiyan 3 Prison Trunks, Xeno Omega Shenron, Super Saiyan 3 Xeno Gohanks and Elder Kai
  • Elder Kai's ability is the Ultimate Ritual
  • The CAA for this mission is Dokabaki (aka Rising Impact)
  • Evil Dragon Black is the fusion of Demigra and Xeno Omega Shenron

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#86678: Sep 6th 2018 at 2:30:45 AM

I like to think Burter had a thing where he could channel more of his ki into his speed than anyone else.

A hypothetical version of Burter with Frieza's exact power level would be faster than Frieza with Frieza's exact power level.

Super Saiyan Grade III and other things show that ki can be channeled to different purposes. Trunks's power level went up and his muscles got bigger, but he was slower.

Edited by unnoun on Sep 6th 2018 at 5:32:15 AM

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#86679: Sep 6th 2018 at 2:58:04 AM

I've always thought something like that, that there are slight deviations in power level depending on both body type and type of training. Like, say, if Chiaotzu and Piccolo had the same power level, Chiaotzu would be a bit faster while Piccolo would be a bit slower, just because of the height difference. Vegeta probably has higher than average endurance.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#86680: Sep 6th 2018 at 4:01:53 AM

No, Toyotaro pretty clearly takes credit for Vegetto, and the way he described it, he added Vegetto really early in the planning of the arc. Like, the second Toyotaro read the outline, he suggested adding Vegetto, and the outline would've existed for at least a month or two before the anime even started on it.

Quoted here:

"Zamasu actually wasn't all that strong of a character in the original draft I received from Toriyama-sensei. Though immortal, his strength was such that two Super Saiyan Blues were more than enough to take him on. It's precisely because of this that in the original draft things unfolded so that his "immortality" and "Potara time limit" became key, and Goku and Vegeta took turns fighting him. Goku and Vegeta didn't fuse in the original draft. Their personalities made any fusion after the Majin Buu arc impossible. However, I wanted to meet the readers' expectations... And so, I made a scenario where "even if they shouldn't really fuse, now they have absolutely no choice but to fuse"."

The first reading I took of this, is that the Potara time limit was part of the original draft (for Zamasu), and then Toyotarou added Vegetto. That would mean that Toei took the original draft, and moved the time limit from Zamasu and used it for Vegetto, who was now part of the draft.

However, I'm starting to think it isn't very likely for them to do that. Especially not if Toyotarou already added in Vegetto Blue to the outline and gave an alternate explanation for him defusing.

Now I'm wondering if the reading is meant to be that the potara time limit was the first thing added to the original draft where Goku and Vegeta could easily take him on, in order to give a different goal than just Goku and Vegeta handling him. If that's true, it very likely came from the anime, given how far ahead it was and how Toyotarou deviates from their ideas.

It's definitely not the first thing he added from this description, at any rate. And though he takes credit for the scenario he created, and Toriyama called it a good idea, the scenario that he uses is also different from the anime (significantly so) and that could be what he is being credited for over just using Vegetto.

It's not 100% clear to me. A straight reading leans more toward the first interpretation but then I'm confused as to why the potara-time limit was a thing (if Goku and Vegeta were 'more than enough' to take him on anyway) and why Toei would change it so much.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#86681: Sep 6th 2018 at 4:39:12 AM

Well, I'm positive that, since Toriyama has named Toyotaro his successor, Toyo is one of the first people to see the original outline, possibly even before the people at Toei. Way I see it, Toyotaro almost certainly made those changes before Toei even aired the first episode of the Future Trunks arc.

The first reading I took of this, is that the Potara time limit was part of the original draft (for Zamasu), and then Toyotarou added Vegetto. That would mean that Toei took the original draft, and moved the time limit from Zamasu and used it for Vegetto, who was now part of the draft.

However, I'm starting to think it isn't very likely for them to do that. Especially not if Toyotarou already added in Vegetto Blue to the outline and gave an alternate explanation for him defusing.

Now I'm wondering if the reading is meant to be that the potara time limit was the first thing added to the original draft where Goku and Vegeta could easily take him on, in order to give a different goal than just Goku and Vegeta handling him. If that's true, it very likely came from the anime, given how far ahead it was and how Toyotarou deviates from their ideas.

It's definitely not the first thing he added from this description, at any rate. And though he takes credit for the scenario he created, and Toriyama called it a good idea, the scenario that he uses is also different from the anime (significantly so) and that could be what he is being credited for over just using Vegetto.

It's not 100% clear to me. A straight reading leans more toward the first interpretation but then I'm confused as to why the potara-time limit was a thing (if Goku and Vegeta were 'more than enough' to take him on anyway) and why Toei would change it so much.

I'm definately leaning on the former interpretation, that the Potara time limit was part of the original draft, and it's explained right there why the Potara time limit was important for Zamasu, since it's paired with Zamasu's immortality.

Way I see it, the original draft went like this: Fused Zamasu is more powerful than either Goku or Vegeta individually, but they put aside their differences and fight him as a team, overpowering him. They can't destroy him, however, because of his immortality, so they have to just stall him as a team until he defuses because of the time limit. I'm assuming the original draft goes pretty much like the manga does after Zamasu defuses.

On an unrelated note: I hope Xenoverse 3 adds Ribrianne's Love Transformations, God of Destruction, and Ultra Instinct as transformations available to all Create-A-Character species.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Sep 6th 2018 at 4:44:49 AM

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#86682: Sep 6th 2018 at 5:06:41 AM

But that interpretation doesn't match Toyotarou saying that two Super Saiyan Blues were 'more than enough to handle him' and that Fused Zamasu wasn't that strong. If he were strong enough that Goku and Vegeta could only beat him by waiting out his fusion time, than that's not very different to the final product.

If Goku and Vegeta are able to overpower him, than the potara time limit is pointless. They have that exact same problem with base Zamasu, who is weaker than them but immmortal. The whole point of the potara time limit in the final product was that they could deal with an immortal that was weaker than them no issue.

Edited by Saiga on Sep 6th 2018 at 10:09:51 PM

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#86683: Sep 6th 2018 at 5:15:50 AM

I mean, I don't get why they didn't just use the Fusion Dance instead for Goku and Vegeta.

Like, even if they didn't like Gogeta's design in Fusion Reborn and GT. They could have redesigned him? They're the artists, they have that power.

Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#86685: Sep 6th 2018 at 5:26:27 AM

Well, I can understand using Vegetto given that he already exists in continuity and they're up against an opponent using Potara. It'd feel odd thematically to use a different fusion method in that instance.

And he's probably more popular, to boot.

Still, given the Broly movie and the fact that they appear to be using Gogeta there, they don't have much of an excuse now.

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#86686: Sep 6th 2018 at 5:32:02 AM

I mean, there's nothing in the manga to indicate that Fusion Dance wasn't possible, and Vegetto being more popular is probably because he was the one from the manga and anime to begin with.

Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#86687: Sep 6th 2018 at 6:01:11 AM

Well, he was the one to have actual character, while Gogeta pretty much was the usual way of dispatching the villian at the end of a movie and thus had the same character as a Genki Dama.

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#86688: Sep 6th 2018 at 6:02:15 AM

I've been saying since it came out that they should have gone for Gogeta instead of Vegito and avoided retconning the earrings.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#86689: Sep 6th 2018 at 6:07:03 AM

It's not like Gogeta and Vegetto have to have different personalities. Or, hell, even designs.

Just take Vegetto and stick him in the metamoran fusion outfit and take off the earrings.

There. Done.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#86690: Sep 6th 2018 at 6:09:45 AM

If Gogeta is really a thing, I wonder if they're going to try to come up for a reason why they won't fuse for every opponent hereafter.

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#86691: Sep 6th 2018 at 6:17:21 AM

I mean.

Vegeta banging his head against a wall up until he has no choice but to let go of his Pride makes sense to me.

Even with character development, he's still Vegeta.

Fusing as a last resort is one thing, as the first resort is another.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#86692: Sep 6th 2018 at 6:18:34 AM

[up][up]

Because Vegeta that's why.

In regards to other points, I can buy that two warriors of similar levels might show some variations (one being faster, and one being stronger). Since fights like that are very, very rare (the gaps almost always being monumentally huge, and even if both fighters are shown to be equal, they'll have the same speed and strength), it's not a thing that comes up very often.

As for how things worked in the outline compared to the manga / anime...meh, Too hard to guess. We got what we got (Earring Fusion is now ruined and worthless).

Edit: So Unnoun Murasaki'ed me on the Vegeta point. But yeah, he hates it, and arguing with him about it is a bigger fight than any fight they are actually going through at the time.

Edited by HandsomeRob on Sep 6th 2018 at 7:21:26 AM

One Strip! One Strip!
Arachosia from United States Since: Feb, 2016 Relationship Status: Not caught up in your love affair
#86693: Sep 6th 2018 at 6:18:45 AM

[nja][up][up] My best guess is Saiyan pride, or something like that.

Edited by Arachosia on Sep 6th 2018 at 9:19:19 AM

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#86694: Sep 6th 2018 at 6:19:37 AM

[up][up][up] Yeah but if a situation doesn't push them to their last resort they can't exactly argue it's a more dire situation than the last one that did push them to their last resort.

It makes their characterization inconsistent.

Edited by Saiga on Sep 6th 2018 at 11:21:41 PM

Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#86695: Sep 6th 2018 at 7:38:17 AM

We shouldn't expect GOKU AND VEGETA to think of the optimal solution, after all...

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#86696: Sep 6th 2018 at 8:12:05 AM

Their characterization is somewhat consistent about them being punch-happy idiots sometimes.

They destroyed the earrings for Kid Buu.

Edited by unnoun on Sep 6th 2018 at 11:12:55 AM

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#86697: Sep 6th 2018 at 8:16:02 AM

Yeah, but Goku regretted doing that.

Getting Goku and Vegeta to fuse is now being posed as something more difficult than it should be, and the point being made is that once you establish one situation in which they are willing to do it, it makes no sense to make things even more dangerous later but have them going "Nah, don't wanna."

"They're idiots" or "my pride" stop being valid explanations after a certain point.

Edited by LSBK on Sep 6th 2018 at 10:21:00 AM

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#86698: Sep 6th 2018 at 8:16:54 AM

That was the problem with Fusion to begin with, so I'm not going to hold my breath for any explanations.

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#86699: Sep 6th 2018 at 8:31:58 AM

There are actually ways where you can work around that, by having it be illegal (as in a tournament setting, though we're all likely sick of tournaments after the TOP) or have them physically split up somehow, or one of them is knocked out, etc.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#86700: Sep 6th 2018 at 11:21:12 AM

Goku was the one who basically yelled at Vegeta to get over his pride & fuse to stop Super Buu.

So yeah he really should’t have a problem with fusion.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."

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