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Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#86651: Sep 5th 2018 at 3:47:43 PM

I actually don't even know what ones are considered unpopular

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#86652: Sep 5th 2018 at 3:53:07 PM

[up]

What are the thoughts on Yamcha vs the Invisible Man, aka the only victory that poor bastard has ever had?

I thought it was unorthodox, since it required something more than brute force (and Yamcha would have won on his own if not for Baba being a interfering bitch and singing).

Also, Yamcha vs Mummy Man displayed some good tactics on the part of the latter I'd say, even if he quickly fell back into his purpose of making Goku look good (something Goku doesn't really need to be honest).

I don't see what point is being made behind Goku not expecting Kuririn to use a distraction. He still faked the weakness of his tail, for no reason other than jollies.

I could buy it being a good showing for Kuririn if he was able to fight impressively against a holding-back Goku or managed to pull a few tricks against full power Goku while being outclassed.

But instead he was using tricks while being outclassed by a sandbagging Goku, and was completely helpless when Goku started using more speed. Possibly not even his full effort given his dialogue with Ten.

Yeah. Toriyama had a real issue with making anyone but Goku and his eventual rival look good in the early story...and maybe still later on.

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PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#86653: Sep 5th 2018 at 4:10:52 PM

The afterimage technique is just moving from one location to another and back fast enough that it looks like you exist in both of those locations in the same time. The logical escalation of the afterimage technique was making more afterimages by moving to more locations fast enough that each afterimage looks solid. Goku's invisibility technique works on the exact same principle as the afterimage technique does, except he's moving from the locations so fast that it doesn't even leave behind an afterimage.

Tenshinhan was able to see through the afterimage technique easily because of his three eyes, but he states that he can barely see Goku using the invisibility technique.

The invisibility move is literally just a modified and upgraded afterimage.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Sep 5th 2018 at 4:11:15 AM

Darthwyn leader of Inherit from The void Since: Feb, 2016 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
leader of Inherit
#86654: Sep 5th 2018 at 5:02:56 PM

In terms of minor battles I did enjoy the I assume anime only Goku and Vegeta vs Super Buu Gohan absorbed fight. Goku already knows it is not going to work, but has to work with Vegeta long enough to convince him that Fusion is their only option while Vegeta vents about Goku sandbagging in their battle.

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Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#86655: Sep 5th 2018 at 5:09:15 PM

Moving faster than your opponent can see isn't a technique. It's just a speed feat.

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GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: In love with love
Formerly G.G.
#86656: Sep 5th 2018 at 5:12:06 PM

Goku can kind of a jerk and he sometimes can be a little insenstive sometimes. Krillin never had a chance against Goku neither did Vegeta at all.

"Mai waifu."
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#86657: Sep 5th 2018 at 5:24:39 PM

[up][up]Well, Goku and Roshi used the afterimage technique on each other while they were evenly matched, which means that its a speed feat that can be replicated and countered by others with the same speed. Goku moving so fast that Krillin can't see him isn't a statement on Krillin's strength any more than Gohan being unable to see Yamcha fighting the Saibaman while Chiaotzu can is a statement on Gohan's strength.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Sep 5th 2018 at 5:27:20 AM

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#86658: Sep 5th 2018 at 5:38:35 PM

The afterimage is briefly moving so fast to leave an afterimage. It can work on someone of similar strength because they're not always moving that fast.

What Goku did was sustain the movement, being able to do so for so long shows his speed is beyond Kuririn.

Furthermore, Kuririn was unable to react to the multiple hits Goku delivered after appearing in front of him.

It is absolutely a comparison of their strength.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#86659: Sep 5th 2018 at 5:56:47 PM

Uh, no? In order to make an afterimage last as long as they do in Dragon Ball, you have to return to the same location repeatedly to refresh the afterimage.

The afterimage technique involves going from point A to point B fast enough that it looks like you're still at point A. The afterimage typically lasts only a second or so, and fades quickly.

The advanced afterimage technique involves going back and forth between points A and B fast enough that there are two afterimages created at those points, and you could be in either one. This is expanded shortly after into having tons of afterimages, six or more, created by going to all six locations and then re-going to those six locations in turn to refresh the six afterimages.

The invisibility technique is an improved variation of the advanced afterimage technique, where Goku bounces between point A and point B fast enough that he doesn't leave an afterimage at either location.

No argument that Goku was stronger, but he wasn't crazily stronger and he was using his max Tournament Power.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Sep 5th 2018 at 5:58:56 AM

Kamiccolo Since: May, 2018
#86660: Sep 5th 2018 at 6:00:29 PM

Tambourine killed Krillin with one kick, Goku smacked Tambourine around like he was nothing until he got bored and decided to vaporize him. Of course he was "crazily stronger."

Edited by Kamiccolo on Sep 5th 2018 at 6:00:03 AM

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#86661: Sep 5th 2018 at 6:01:46 PM

Well, yeah, Goku would've been using his Battle Power against someone who killed his friend.

MightyMatilda Mr. Clueless from New Jersey, USA Since: Jan, 2015
Mr. Clueless
#86662: Sep 5th 2018 at 6:02:34 PM

@Saiga: So, Goku was faster than Krillin, therefore Goku was stronger than Krillin?

I don't understand.

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slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#86663: Sep 5th 2018 at 6:15:50 PM

Well speed generally correlates with your overall strength.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#86664: Sep 5th 2018 at 6:16:06 PM

That is how strength in DB works yes

@PMC you misunderstand, I didnt say he was sustaining the afterimage but the speed.

The afterimage is briefly moving faster than your opponent. To be able to consistently move faster than your opponent (so that they can't see you) means being that much faster than them.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#86665: Sep 5th 2018 at 6:28:58 PM

Well, the multi-afterimage is moving to one location faster than the eye can see, stopping for a split second to allow a projection of your body to reach the eye of your opponent, then repeating for as many times as you have afterimages. The invisibility technique is the same principle, except Goku isn't stopping for a split second, he's using the speed he already has to kick off the ground and bounce back.

It's not quite the same as a sustained running feat, since Goku isn't running, he's just jumping back and forth. It's sustained, yes, but it's sustained in the form of quick bursts of speed. It's impressive, and I'm sure requires a lot of concentration, but it's a short-distance speed feat, not a long-distance one.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Sep 5th 2018 at 6:33:46 AM

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#86666: Sep 5th 2018 at 6:53:42 PM

Not long distance...well obviously.

If it was, that filler of the Snake Way trek should be considered more Toei inconsistencies.

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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#86667: Sep 5th 2018 at 8:06:38 PM

@Saiga: So, Goku was faster than Krillin, therefore Goku was stronger than Krillin?

I don't understand.

As Saiga and Slimcoder explained, Speed and Strength are all tied to your ki. The dude with the higher Ki is faster, stronger and more durable. You can't be slower than a guy, but faster if he has higher Ki.

So I hear you saying, but what about our boy Burter, the Fastest in the Universe?

Well, Burter was full of shit.tongue

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Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#86668: Sep 5th 2018 at 8:15:43 PM

Well, that's the general rule. There can be noted exceptions like Super Saiyan Grade III and Burter - he's definitely not as fast as he claims, but the other Ginyus act like his speed is notable despite Recoome and Jheese being similarly powerful.

Super also has Dyspo as the most obvious exception, though I don't know if his speed was part of Toriyama's draft.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#86669: Sep 5th 2018 at 8:23:28 PM

Good point. I forgot there are exceptions.

As for what's in Toriyama's draft or not, for the most part, I consider anything that makes it into both version to be something that was in the draft, though I'm not sure how well that holds up.

Edit: Actually, you know what? I still say Burter's full of shit. It's half personal preference, and half that anyone who claims to be faster than Frieza is cruising for all the bruisings.

Yes, all of them. Few people know how many bruisings there are.

Edited by HandsomeRob on Sep 5th 2018 at 9:37:04 AM

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Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#86670: Sep 5th 2018 at 8:41:11 PM

He may have been faster than Freeza's chair?

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Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#86671: Sep 5th 2018 at 8:43:18 PM

Burter: I am the fastest being in the universe!

Ginyu: I must apologize Lord Frieza. We have purposely trained him wrong. As a joke.

Edited by Moth13 on Sep 5th 2018 at 11:44:41 AM

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#86672: Sep 5th 2018 at 9:15:21 PM

[up][up][up] Yeah, obviously he's not faster than Freeza.

The manga is so far behind the anime now that I can see Toyotarou using ideas that were exclusive to the anime if he likes them enough. Which would further muddle things.

We've already had the anime seemingly copy an idea from the manga before.

Edited by Saiga on Sep 6th 2018 at 2:18:01 AM

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#86673: Sep 5th 2018 at 9:29:03 PM

We've already had the anime seemingly copy an idea from the manga before.

That would be Goku being able to use Super Saiyan God right?

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PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
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#86674: Sep 5th 2018 at 10:37:23 PM

Not to mention the fact that Vegetto wasn't part of the original outline, and was an addition by Toyotaro.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#86675: Sep 6th 2018 at 1:33:22 AM

[up][up] And the God-Blue switching, which was the main thing I was referencing

[up] I've been thinking lately that with the lag time the manga has, it's possible that the anime had done Vegetto before Toyotarou suggested that.

There are two reasons I think that: Toyotarou would have had to have planned that really far in advance for Toei to be able to use it, given the gap, and the fact that they mentioned the 1 hour potara limit being in the manga's plotline before Vegetto.

The anime didn't include the potara time limit for Zamasu, and I doubt they would have removed that if it was part of Toriyama's original outline. So if Toriyama didn't add that to Zamasu, Toyotarou did, and that would suggest that he got the idea from the anime inventing it for Vegetto.

Then satisfying the fans' expectations probably refers to the fact that fans had already seen Vegetto in the anime.


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