If you watched OG Dragon Ball, you know that's not true.
Goku still asks both of them for advice, so.. Besides, you can make a case for King Kai without belittling Roahi and Karin.
It's not "nebulous" when we're talking about martial art masters. Especially since in a lot of media martial art masters are treated like second fathers or the only father figure a martial artist knows.
And after Gohan died, Roshi filled that role for Goku.
Edited by Cortez on Aug 30th 2018 at 10:52:46 AM
Edited by Kamiccolo on Aug 30th 2018 at 7:52:25 AM
Roshi is basically Goku's second father figure, after Gohan. Roshi taught him math, other academics, and the most basic principles of martial arts that Goku would follow for the rest of his life. Even after training with Korin, Roshi is still Goku's master whom he listens to for his training in preparation for the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai. There is no doubt in my mind that Goku values Roshi the most out of all of his masters.
Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Aug 30th 2018 at 8:01:08 AM
Edited by Kamiccolo on Aug 30th 2018 at 8:10:37 AM
No-one who officially writes or produces Dragon Ball - Toriyama down the line here to Shueisha, Toei, etc. - actually bothers to make any kind of statement about what "counts". Ever.
Edited by Kamiccolo on Aug 30th 2018 at 8:15:38 AM
It does, that you have a problem with it doesn't change that.
And you're the one using "I don't want it to count" as am argument, which isn't a good one as i said.
It just sounds like you don't want it to count because it doesn't fit with your argument.
And it also sounds like you don't "count" anything pre Z. Even though it's still part of the story.
Edited by Cortez on Aug 30th 2018 at 11:21:54 AM
An example of something with an official canon is Star Wars. Lucas came out and said outright what counted, what didn't, and in what order things overrode each other. Disney rebooted that and issued their own official canon policy. No one has ever done anything like that with Dragon Ball. Likely, no one ever will.
Edited by Kamiccolo on Aug 30th 2018 at 8:20:17 AM
Looking up to someone as a father figure should probably have something beyond martial arts advice. Does he look for Roshi when he needs advice on handling issues except for fighting or needs emotional support? Does he looks up to Roshi beyond his martial arts skills? Does he value Roshi's advice beyond his future teachers? Does he often reminisce of the time he spent as Roshi's pupil? Goku in general doesn't have much in terms of personal attachment towards anyone beyond being friends with them, so saying he thinks of Roshi as a father figure is kind of saying a lot.
x2
We already went over how Roshi taught they boys stuff outside Martial Arts.
×3
You forget how people had no problem with the fact that the old films weren't canon.
But it again, it seems more like you don't want it to count because it doesn't help your argument.
Edited by Cortez on Aug 30th 2018 at 11:37:00 AM
I won't deny that King Kai did have big impact on Goku.
While the Kaioken and Spirit Bomb were left in the wind, it is true that the training Goku did King Kai played a part in the eventual jump in Goku's Power Level (though Zenkai Bullshit did the rest).
And the help he continues to provide throughout the Saiyan, Frieza, Namek, Android and even Buu Arcs was very influential.
That being said, I do feel that saying Roshi gave Goku nothing is selling him short. Goku is still rocking the Kamehameha years later, all because Roshi showed him how to do it, and it was Roshi who instilled in Goku the value of always seeking to better himself and never resting on his laurels and assuming he was the biggest dog in the yard...which didn't stop said biggest dog from slapping the shit out of him anyway, but it was still a valuable lesson.
Korin, Popo and Kami's teachings were less influential, though the last two are the reason Goku can sense Ki...and maybe the flight technique as well. We never did find out how he learned it.
I'd say King Kai and Roshi are both in the top percentage of Ratatta 'GOOD MASTERS.
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Not my point. I meant him thinking of Roshi as anything more than a cool mentor. By issues outside of fighting I sort of meant personal life issues, but then again he doesn't have much of those beyond Chi-Chi wanting him to have a job. I have no doubt that he cares about Roshi, but he doesn't come across as caring more about Roshi than any other mentor.
Edited by Ikedatakeshi on Aug 30th 2018 at 11:29:54 PM

Edited by Kamiccolo on Aug 30th 2018 at 7:46:34 AM