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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#86376: Aug 18th 2018 at 8:07:02 PM

[up][up]

Well, Armour Piercing Slap has long been a thing. Then again, there's an implication that if the other dude dodges it, the scorned woman will just keep attacking him regardless of how justified the attack is.

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slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#86377: Aug 18th 2018 at 8:07:46 PM

[up] But wouldn’t he just keep on dodging?

I mean it’s not hard.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#86378: Aug 18th 2018 at 8:15:18 PM

They can take it, they're strong

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#86379: Aug 18th 2018 at 8:18:34 PM

I would make sure they end up breaking their hands.

There’s never an excuse for being an annoyance.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#86380: Aug 18th 2018 at 8:22:46 PM

In the case of Bulma, it's just Rule of Funny.

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#86381: Aug 18th 2018 at 8:38:09 PM

Huh, Goku has Kaioken in the Manga too.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#86382: Aug 18th 2018 at 8:39:17 PM

Yeah. That's where he learned it first...or are you talking the Super Manga?

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BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#86383: Aug 18th 2018 at 8:40:18 PM

Yea, the latter. SSB Kaioken is in the manga.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#86384: Aug 18th 2018 at 8:50:09 PM

Huh.

You know, I'm no longer sure what's in the original Toriyama outline, and what's being included because Toyotarou decided to make it a thing.

So SSB Kaioken is officially in both versions. Cool beans. Does this mean that Mastered SSB will find it's way into the next version of the anime?

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XMenMutant22 The Feline Follies of Felix the Cat Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Hoping Senpai notices me
#86385: Aug 18th 2018 at 8:50:32 PM

[up] We're all lucky that a Toriyama interview is coming with Volume 7 of the Super Manga in September, according to the recent V-Jump.

Though it's pretty clear at this point that the manga and anime versions are influencing each other more so than we give them credit for. Remember, despite being an anime-original form, Ultra Instinct -Omen- made its appearance in the manga continuity.


So...Manga Goku used Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken against Jiren, to which the Pride Trooper brushes off like a gnat. This is before Roshi comes in reminds Goku to "depend only on Physical Power but more on inner strength."

  • Under the translator's discretion (Crt), the line could be interpreted as Goku stacking Kaioken on Super Saiyan Blue, or manipulating Super Saiyan Blue in a way that mimics a Kaioken-like effect.
    • Rai, the usually reliable leaker of the Chinese copy, does believe it is SSBKK. Not only because he reaffrims Krillin and Tenshinhan talking about it, but Toyotaro is mimicking the way Toriyama depicts the technique's aura compared to SSB and (obviously) CSSB.

Edited by XMenMutant22 on Aug 18th 2018 at 1:21:27 PM

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#86386: Aug 18th 2018 at 8:58:29 PM

Also, The Chinese characters used in the manga are indeed the same as Kaioken's

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#86387: Aug 18th 2018 at 8:59:42 PM

Huh Goku looks to be ha doing Jiren better than he did in the anime.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Kamiccolo Since: May, 2018
#86388: Aug 18th 2018 at 9:13:53 PM

That's a pretty bad example given that he WAS holding back and did put up a much better fight as a result.
My point wasn't that he had to be holding back, but that we have nothing but his claim that it was by enough to matter. And examples of him getting thrashed, stating "I'm not going to hold back anymore," and still getting thrashed.
Goku being able to do that amazed everyone else present, who could also control their powers. Freeza never showed that he could control his battle power that freely, you've made that assumption just from Goku surviving his attacks (he never hits Piccolo in his final form, just death beams him and takes him out) - however, he explicitly says he's using 50% of his power when he does so, which goes against you're idea that he's dropping his power every time he hits him. The fact that it takes him time to build up form 70% to 100% shows that he cannot go from "1% to near 100% in a split second".
70% to 100% is unique because it's actually a transformation, he doubles in size. His previous power-ups happened immediately and weren't visually obvious. For example, 50% to 70%.
So it's not that Freeza never thought to change his power, he hasn't shown to the ability to do that while on the receiving end of a beatdown. I'm also not sure if his 'not being serious' involved his power being suppressed, or just being surprised and overwhelmed like Goku was.
In that case Kale was still strong enough to draw blood from him.
Goku doesn't disagree, Freeza never says that to him before Goku comes to his aid. Freeza says that after Goku cuts in. Him having used too much energy doesn't mean he had to be at full power (/fighting seriously) because he's still using his Golden Form.
Goku disagrees by virtue of intervening at all.

Man, holding back and never exerting full power sure wears you out fast! At least if you believe Freeza.

She's wrong, though, because Kafla is weaker than Goku as confirmed in these spoilers.
Is she? Is she really? Because it might be that Goku is only stronger due to Kaio-Ken which she hasn't seen. Which would invalidate the second half of your post based on this assumption. I guess we'll see in 3 days. If so then Gohan and Kefla probably are just outright stronger than Freeza, Toppo, and Vegeta, as Vados said.
That's simple, he was taken off guard (which we saw he was) and Kale didn't let up. If Kale had stopped attacking, he got up and then she attacked him a second time with the same result, then yeah he couldn't be off guard.
That's exactly what happened though? After the initial beating she throws Freeza away. Freeza gets a few panels to think to himself about Kale's new form, with her not attacking. Then she walks over and smacks him again. In that break his performance didn't change.

Edited by Kamiccolo on Aug 18th 2018 at 9:13:58 AM

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#86389: Aug 18th 2018 at 9:29:47 PM

50% to 70% wasn't immediate, he did it while struggling with the Kaio-ken Kamehameha. We see him give out a yell. And even though his body changes (a literal transformation), 70-100% is not treated like it's a separate form but just him powering up.

And no, Goku intervening does not mean that he thinks Freeza's full power can't stand up to Kale. You're jumping to conclusions.

And no-one is saying that it's holding back that makes you wear out, you can drop the condescension. It's the Golden form, which was specifically noted to burn energy quickly. Assuming that this form wouldn't burn energy if he was holding back is merely conjecture.

From what we've seen so far, she is. Gohan vs Kafla looks to take place before Goku vs Jiren for real, which would mean that Gohan/Kafla are weaker than the Goku we've seen before he uses Kaio-ken.

Scratch that, Goku is uninjured when he's said to be stronger than Gohan and a bit bloody when he's using Kaio-ken. Blue Goku > Gohan, Kafla and Kale.

It's one hit, after Freeza has not made any movement or changes of his own. To use your own logic, if Toyo hadn't written Freeza kicking Goku out of the way, would Goku have just instantly powered up to 100% and blocked Kale's attack after his guard was broken? Because he's been confirmed stronger than her, but was overpowered than her and never showed that he was stronger.

edit: Also, not a fan of Kaio-ken being brought back in the manga. It would appear that Toyotarou is taking more and more cues from the anime, I wish he wouldn't do that.

Edited by Saiga on Aug 19th 2018 at 2:35:48 AM

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#86390: Aug 18th 2018 at 9:36:43 PM

[up] I know you're issues stem from Kaioken seemingly not having an upper limit, but I think all that's needed is for that upper limit to be created. The highest Goku has ever gone is 20 right? Maybe say that's the maximum for anyone who uses the technique, combined with how high their own power is (so that the stronger you are, the more dangerous it is to go higher) There.

I mean, they retconned how Potarra Fusion works, so they can do this too.

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Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#86391: Aug 18th 2018 at 9:52:58 PM

That's only one issue of many. Goku being able to become 20x stronger is an insane upper limit that completely screws with all the power scaling. That means Goku is less than 1/20th of Jiren or Beerus' strength just with Blue, which pretty much invalidates earlier fights and showings of strength. It's just needless power inflation.

Then there's the anime pretending that Vegeta and Goku rival each other in strength despite going for a really long time where Goku could make himself 10-20x stronger and Vegeta had no equivalent.

It'd also just be a little silly to suddenly say that the level Goku stopped using it at before is coincidentally the upper limit for the technique. Especially when it DID have an upper limit, and Goku was just able to push past it.

Edited by Saiga on Aug 19th 2018 at 2:56:09 AM

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#86392: Aug 18th 2018 at 9:57:47 PM

I mean, it's not Goku can constantly use the Kaioken either.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#86393: Aug 18th 2018 at 10:07:55 PM

That doesn't matter though, 10-20x is a massive increase even in bursts and he can use it pretty constantly as seen in his battle with Freeza.

The technique itself also isn't really that interesting, it had its time but constantly keeping it around does it no favours.

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#86394: Aug 18th 2018 at 10:10:54 PM

Not that it matters since it's so non-canon it hurts, but didn't Goku use Kaio-ken x100 to punch a hole through Lord Slug?

That's literally Super Saiyan 2.

Edited by Anomalocaris20 on Aug 18th 2018 at 1:13:04 PM

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#86395: Aug 18th 2018 at 10:11:46 PM

Yeah. There's the issue that overusing it will mess him up.

Really, Goku isn't even doing it right. The Kaioken is meant for short bursts of power, like just before a punch is landed, KAIOKEN ATTACK! And Boom! Super Punch.

But he's constantly using it for lengthy minutes instead of brief spurts.

Now that I think about it, what Toriyama really should have done is not give it increased increments of power (X2 , X3, etc) but instead just focus on the using it for long periods of time is where it gets dangerous.

Oh, like in how Rauzaruk works. There's a safe length of time you can use it for, and if you choose to go over that, it's dangerous, and with training, you can lengthen it, but you shouldn't be using it except for at the very moment before you land a blow.

Got [nja]'ed, but my point is that it should be used more strategically, to strike telling blows when the enemy doesn't expect it, and keep them confused about how strong you are.

Edited by HandsomeRob on Aug 18th 2018 at 11:12:47 AM

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Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#86396: Aug 18th 2018 at 10:13:00 PM

Goku does use it for short burts of power (mangawise at least) it's just that he can repeatedly do so and effectively fight at that level for an extended period.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#86397: Aug 18th 2018 at 10:14:41 PM

I see.

Toriyama really should have set some ground rules for it.

Then again, the supposed Energy Drain of Super Saiyan rarely seems to be a thing anymore. It's brought up, but doesn't really slow anyone down unless the plot says so.

Like I said, the guy just doesn't know how not to up the scale.

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BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#86398: Aug 18th 2018 at 10:16:13 PM

Goku blows through his power using it against Jiren btw

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#86399: Aug 18th 2018 at 10:24:45 PM

[up][up] What do you mean? Regular Super Saiyan was worked on to minimize the power drain, SS3 ramped it back up again, and Blue's issues have also been fixed in the manga.

Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#86400: Aug 18th 2018 at 11:02:08 PM

Yeah. Part of Goku and Gohan's training in the HTC was specifically to lessen the power drain of Super Saiyan.

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