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Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#86351: Aug 18th 2018 at 5:53:49 PM

God Gohan, you flashy bastard. Stop being so ostentatious

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#86352: Aug 18th 2018 at 5:55:58 PM

Also you say that like surpassing Goku is particularly hard to do

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#86353: Aug 18th 2018 at 5:59:56 PM

Even Vegeta did that

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Kamiccolo Since: May, 2018
#86354: Aug 18th 2018 at 6:13:24 PM

He said he held back
He says a lot of things. Goku, a more accurate judge of power, certainly didn't seem to think Kale was someone he could handle.

Edited by Kamiccolo on Aug 18th 2018 at 6:17:57 AM

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#86355: Aug 18th 2018 at 6:19:13 PM

That's not a persuasive argument.

Off the top of my head, I can't think of a single time a character has claimed to have held back without having actually done so.

Furthermore, nobody has mentioned that Freeza wasn't holding back, or that he was lying, and Goku didn't dispute his claim at all.

Kamiccolo Since: May, 2018
#86356: Aug 18th 2018 at 6:19:53 PM

Goku jumped in to save him, clearly having no confidence in his chances.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#86357: Aug 18th 2018 at 6:23:27 PM

Cause he saw Freeza was being beaten up, Freeza after that clarified that he just needed to take her seriously.

Goku was easily able to overpower Kale at the level she was beating up Freeza, and then Golden Freeza knocked him out of Blue with one kick.

Hell, Freeza's kick did more to Goku than Goku's kick did to Kale.

Kamiccolo Since: May, 2018
#86358: Aug 18th 2018 at 6:27:43 PM

Cause he saw Freeza was being beaten up, Freeza after that clarified that he just needed to take her seriously.
So Goku forgot how to sense ki and wasn't able to tell that Kale was weak and someone Freeza should easily beat? Despite commenting on her strength moments later?

Or did Freeza just do the same thing that anime!Vegeta constantly does and say "I didn't need your help Kakarot, I had that under control!" while getting another tooth knocked into his own buttock?

It reminds me of Freeza getting smacked around by Goku, then dropping a statement about how he could totally beat Goku in 30 seconds if he stops holding back, then going to full strength, and then getting smacked around by Goku again.

Goku was easily able to overpower Kale at the level she was beating up Freeza, and then Golden Freeza knocked him out of Blue with one kick.
It was an off guard kick, those are really effective in Super for whatever reason.

Edited by Kamiccolo on Aug 18th 2018 at 6:28:35 AM

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#86359: Aug 18th 2018 at 6:32:53 PM

Well, this isn't the anime, so I wouldn't assume Freeza would act like that.

When exactly did Freeza do that?

I'm not saying that Goku forgot how to sense ki. He just saw that Freeza was being overwhelmed. Freeza could have been tossed out of the ring before he gets a handle of things.

That makes more sense than Freeza saying he wasn't fighting seriously, when he was, and this never being addressed by the characters. That doesn't make any narrative sense to include a line like that for no purpose. I know the anime does this, but the manga hasn't so far. I'm not going to assume it is here without any actual evidence.

I think Toyo included that line to give him a little lee-way, Kale is strong but she's not confirmed above everyone so there's no contradiction when Kafla is beaten.

And CSSB Goku can be taken out by an off-guard kick but Freeza can't be overwhelmed by an opponent who took him by surprise with her power increase?

Edited by Saiga on Aug 18th 2018 at 11:33:01 PM

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#86360: Aug 18th 2018 at 6:49:15 PM

You know, I was really skeptical about the new movie, but it sounds pretty promising after all.

Because Gohan isn't in it?

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Kamiccolo Since: May, 2018
#86361: Aug 18th 2018 at 6:49:29 PM

When exactly did Freeza do that?
On Namek. After getting smacked around a bit at 50-70% power, Freeza said he'd easily beat Goku at full power. Goku scoffed and told him to go ahead and power up because it'd make no difference. Then Freeza thinks to himself that he could beat Goku "in 1 minute... no, 30 seconds...". Then when he actually gets to full power, he attacks Goku to little effect, and claims he's still holding back. Then Goku just shrugs and punches him repeatedly in the head until he gets bored.
I'm not saying that Goku forgot how to sense ki. He just saw that Freeza was being overwhelmed. Freeza could have been tossed out of the ring before he gets a handle of things.
It was shown in Freeza's own arc that fighters, including him, could go from 1% to near 100% in a split second, and vice versa. Goku does it by alternating between 5,000 and 90,000 while fighting the Ginyus. Freeza does it when he shoots his power from 50-70% down to whatever percent he needs to punch Piccolo and Goku repeatedly without them dying. For some reason Freeza never thought to change his power in the duration of the extended beatdown?
That makes more sense than Freeza saying he wasn't fighting seriously, when he was, and this never being addressed by the characters. That doesn't make any narrative sense to include a line like that for no purpose. I know the anime does this, but the manga hasn't so far. I'm not going to assume it is here without any actual evidence. I think Toyo included that line to give him a little lee-way, Kale is strong but she's not confirmed above everyone so there's no contradiction when Kafla is beaten.
I think he put it in to show Freeza's usual personality. He says he could handle Kale. Goku disagrees with him and so rushes to his aid. Reality disagrees with him so he gets his face repeatedly slammed into the ground over and over until Goku jumps in, and never gets to back up his boast. Freeza also gets the typical "oh shit" face when Kale powers up again after smacking him around. Then in the next chapter he powers down and claims to be using too much energy and wanting to conserve it despite, by his claim, not having outputted anywhere near his full power yet.

Vados also outright says that SS Kefla might be the most powerful fighter there and "unmatched on the battlefield," and this is after seeing Vegeta's full power against Toppo. No one talks as Kefla got a huge boost over Kale, just better fighting sense, so it's likely Kale was already in that league.

And CSSB Goku can be taken out by an off-guard kick but Freeza can't be overwhelmed by an opponent who took him by surprise with her power increase?
"Taken off guard" for several pages straight and even after he gets time to catch his breath and comment on her power before she walks over and starts beating on him again? No. Let's just say that, had Goku not jumped in, I highly doubt Toyotaro would've drawn Freeza powering up and easily winning and thus being totally justified in telling Goku not to intervene.

Edited by Kamiccolo on Aug 18th 2018 at 6:55:40 AM

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#86362: Aug 18th 2018 at 6:58:10 PM

I have to say, I like the back and forth that's been happening between Saiga and kamiccolo.

Edited by LSBK on Aug 18th 2018 at 8:57:55 AM

TheMageofFire Since: May, 2012
#86364: Aug 18th 2018 at 6:59:49 PM

Hey it fits, corn is basically golden.

Kamiccolo Since: May, 2018
#86365: Aug 18th 2018 at 7:03:26 PM

"You may have cut off both my legs and my arm, shattered my rib cage resulting in my lung being punctured, took my finishing move head-on without any injury whatsoever, let me punch you in the gut repeatedly to no effect, broke my hand, punched/kneed/headbutted me a dozen times with a bored look on your face, actually took pity on me and tried to save my life thrice, and declared me a complete non-threat, while all I did in return was bloody your lip a bit... BUT I'M STILL STRONGER THAN YOU, THAT FIGHT WAS JUST A PRANK BRO."

-Freeza

Edited by Kamiccolo on Aug 18th 2018 at 7:12:07 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#86366: Aug 18th 2018 at 7:04:05 PM

Don’t worry Frieza.

At least your stronger than Cabba. tongue

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#86367: Aug 18th 2018 at 7:15:34 PM

On Namek. After getting smacked around a bit at 50-70% power, Freeza said he'd easily beat Goku at full power. Goku scoffed and told him to go ahead and power up because it'd make no difference. Then Freeza thinks to himself that he could beat Goku "in 1 minute... no, 30 seconds...". Then when he actually gets to full power, he attacks Goku to little effect, and claims he's still holding back. Then Goku just shrugs and punches him repeatedly in the head until he gets bored.

That's a pretty bad example given that he WAS holding back and did put up a much better fight as a result.

It was shown in Freeza's own arc that fighters, including him, could go from 1% to near 100% in a split second, and vice versa. Goku does it by alternating between 5,000 and 90,000 while fighting the Ginyus. Freeza does it when he shoots his power from 50-70% down to whatever percent he needs to punch Piccolo and Goku repeatedly without them dying. For some reason Freeza never thought to change his power in the duration of the extended beatdown?

Goku being able to do that amazed everyone else present, who could also control their powers. Freeza never showed that he could control his battle power that freely, you've made that assumption just from Goku surviving his attacks (he never hits Piccolo in his final form, just death beams him and takes him out) - however, he explicitly says he's using 50% of his power when he does so, which goes against you're idea that he's dropping his power every time he hits him. The fact that it takes him time to build up form 70% to 100% shows that he cannot go from "1% to near 100% in a split second".

So it's not that Freeza never thought to change his power, he hasn't shown to the ability to do that while on the receiving end of a beatdown. I'm also not sure if his 'not being serious' involved his power being suppressed, or just being surprised and overwhelmed like Goku was.

I think he put it in to show Freeza's usual personality. He says he could handle Kale. Goku disagrees with him and so rushes to his aid. Reality disagrees with him so he gets his face repeatedly slammed into the ground over and over until Goku jumps in, and never gets to back up his boast. Freeza also gets the typical "oh shit" face when Kale powers up again after smacking him around. Then in the next chapter he powers down and claims to be using too much energy and wanting to conserve it despite, by his claim, not having outputted anywhere near his full power yet.

Goku doesn't disagree, Freeza never says that to him before Goku comes to his aid. Freeza says that after Goku cuts in. Him having used too much energy doesn't mean he had to be at full power (/fighting seriously) because he's still using his Golden Form.

Vados also outright says that SS Kefla might be the most powerful fighter there and "unmatched on the battlefield," and this is after seeing Vegeta's full power against Toppo. No one talks as Kefla got a huge boost over Kale, just better fighting sense, so it's likely Kale was already in that league.

She's wrong, though, because Kafla is weaker than Goku as confirmed in these spoilers.

"Taken off guard" for several pages straight and even after he gets time to catch his breath and comment on her power before she walks over and starts beating on him again? No. Let's just say that, had Goku not jumped in, I highly doubt Toyotaro would've drawn Freeza powering up and easily winning and thus being totally justified in telling Goku not to intervene.

That's simple, he was taken off guard (which we saw he was) and Kale didn't let up. If Kale had stopped attacking, he got up and then she attacked him a second time with the same result, then yeah he couldn't be off guard. But when it's just one continuous attack from the first grab it's definitely plausible that Freeza got overwhelmed. As for what Toyo would do, that's moot because Toyo had Goku jump in. He wrote everything he did knowing Goku would jump in, you can't treat half the events as what would happen in-universe and the other half as what Toyo would write.

Finally - we know that Kale can overpower people stronger than her. It's literally what she did to Goku, he saw her power, blocked her attack but she eventually broke his guard through her strength increasing. Despite that, we found out that she's still weaker than him.

This means one of two things. Either he wasn't using his full power when he did that, or he wasn't taking her seriously enough. Either of those could apply to Freeza, enabling him to be overpowered without actually being weaker than Kale (or at least, that much weaker).

I can't see Gohan ragdolling a full power, serious Golden Freeza like that. That doesn't make a lot of sense with Freeza's upcoming prominence.

And I'm not saying that Freeza was definitely stronger than Kale, or that he should be stronger. Just that there is no evidence to dispute that he wasn't fully serious, so Kale's strength isn't so concrete.

Edited by Saiga on Aug 19th 2018 at 12:16:22 AM

Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#86368: Aug 18th 2018 at 7:20:58 PM

"[Character]'s strength isn't so concrete" is a phrase that would be correct when applied to Super regardless of the character.

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#86369: Aug 18th 2018 at 7:33:36 PM

Also you say that like surpassing Goku is particularly hard to do

True. The hard part is staying ahead of him. Goku seems incapable of letting someone else (in the main cast) be #1.

Even Beerus is gonna eventually feel that hit.

One Strip! One Strip!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#86370: Aug 18th 2018 at 7:38:02 PM

Hard to say, they reaaaally don't seem interested in making Goku stronger than Beerus.

Like, even UI/Jiren might not actually be stronger than him, as crazy as that sounds. There's been a lot of arguments about it over the internet, and there's essentially enough wiggle room that they could turn around and say that Beerus is stronger than that.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#86371: Aug 18th 2018 at 7:42:54 PM

Which is why I’m kinda okay with Broly killing Beerus.

Also why did Bulma show up in the villain forrest?

Edited by slimcoder on Aug 18th 2018 at 7:42:23 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#86372: Aug 18th 2018 at 7:48:54 PM

If Broly is really going to kill Beerus (and is stronger than Jiren) I have to wonder why Goku couldn't keep UI.

Either way I have to wonder what their future plans for it are. A lot of people are expecting it to come up in the climax to beat Broly, but that seems a little anti-climactic. It'd seen too similar to the TOP building up to UI to feel dramatic.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#86373: Aug 18th 2018 at 7:55:05 PM

Also why did Bulma show up in the villain forrest?

Because Angry Bulma scares damn near everyone...except Chi-Chi, who Calm Bulma is scared of.

That and the idea of a relatively normal woman still scaring the crap out of one of the strongest dudes on the planet is still supposed to be funny somehow.

I'd honestly like to see one of them get her mad...and then nothing happens since she can't actually put a scratch in them anyway.

One Strip! One Strip!
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#86374: Aug 18th 2018 at 8:00:51 PM

[up] How bout when Goku was paranoid of Hit & Bulma tried hitting him & he just....... dodged which dumbfounded everyone because apparently Goku never dodges Bulma’s punches?

I’m pretty hitting Goku would just break your own hand.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#86375: Aug 18th 2018 at 8:02:27 PM

Wrong thread.

Edited by LordVatek on Aug 18th 2018 at 11:06:00 AM

This song needs more love.

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