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Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#86276: Aug 18th 2018 at 1:33:21 AM

He wasn't active in Z, and it wouldn't be useful against anyone important. I don't think he would have had it in, but he's still had plenty of time to work in order to have it now.

And as I've said, the humans have independently discovered flight, ki sensing, ki manipulation and controlling their power level. They didn't need teachers for those. They don't need teachers to discover UI.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#86277: Aug 18th 2018 at 1:51:54 AM

Yeah, the fact that UI is explicitly not a specific divine powerup, but is instead a function of a honed mind - whose capabilities were very well explained by Whis, such that they are very open theoretically being universally learnable - makes this rather less difficult to buy than people are making this out to be. The fact that Ultra Instinct is clearly inspired by a number of real life ideologies makes it doubly so.

Also, this is Dragonball. The qualifier that "the gods find this difficult" is always going to be iffy. The gods, even at their most powerful, have never been depicted as significantly more diligent or capable of excellence than the protagonists (Beerus, most relevantly, is stronger than everyone but is portrayed as a lazy twit who doesn't work to better himself as much as he should). The gods having difficulty wrapping their mind around something has never been cause to believe that a mortal couldn't do it before, so it being tauted as a reason no mortal should learn something they couldn't now is odd. The series has never been like that.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Aug 18th 2018 at 1:52:28 AM

Ikedatakeshi Baby dango from singapore Since: Nov, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Baby dango
#86278: Aug 18th 2018 at 1:54:56 AM

You know what, after considering it, Roshi did something that might as well be on a similar level on stupidity when he dodged Ganos through pure experience, so I'm not going to be so dead set on debating this.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#86279: Aug 18th 2018 at 1:55:02 AM

Most of the Gods don’t seem like smart people or even martial artists really.

Just extremely strong beings & who knows how much of that power is due to being born with it like Frieza or just plain working for it like Jiren.

Edited by slimcoder on Aug 18th 2018 at 2:07:49 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#86280: Aug 18th 2018 at 1:59:29 AM

Come to think of it, Champa is as strong as Beerus and explicitly doesn't work for it.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Aug 18th 2018 at 1:59:20 AM

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#86281: Aug 18th 2018 at 3:09:25 AM
Thumped: Wow. That was rude. Too many of this kind of thump will bring a suspension. Please keep it civil.
Ikedatakeshi Baby dango from singapore Since: Nov, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Baby dango
#86282: Aug 18th 2018 at 3:15:16 AM

I only accept it because Jiren is stated as explicitly holding back a lot of his power so as to not kill Roshi, which makes him easier to dodge. Plus, never said it wasn't stupid, just not worse than whatever the anime has done.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#86283: Aug 18th 2018 at 3:40:14 AM

[up]x5 The difference is that the Ganos example actively contradicts how this series works.

As I've said, I don't like UI Roshi and would never choose to include it, but it doesn't have the issue of contradicting how this series works or how we were told UI works.

Like, my issues with UI Roshi are the fact that it makes Roshi out to be more skilled than he should be relative to the other characters, giving him more importance and relevance

This is all stuff that the anime's portrayal did, but they were more extreme on all fronts - even having Ganos say Roshi should retire so that Roshi could reject that (and in doing so, reject his original character arc).

Ikedatakeshi Baby dango from singapore Since: Nov, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Baby dango
#86284: Aug 18th 2018 at 3:57:23 AM

I mean, if we're going by that, Roshi suddenly being more skilled than the other characters is a contradiction to the original series.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#86285: Aug 18th 2018 at 4:01:25 AM

That's exactly what he said...

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#86286: Aug 18th 2018 at 4:03:19 AM

Roshi fighting Jiren and having Ultra Instinct is so much more ridiculous than him defeating an unskilled fighter only slightly stronger than him that I can't believe we're even having this conversation. I can't believe you're actually defending this nonsense. I can't even take this conversation seriously, it's so inherently farcical.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#86287: Aug 18th 2018 at 4:05:02 AM

[up][up][up] Yeah, and I'm hoping that's not the avenue they go with. It won't be necessary to do so to have Roshi have UI.

[up] You're not even making an argument there.

Edited by Saiga on Aug 18th 2018 at 9:04:46 PM

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#86288: Aug 18th 2018 at 4:09:46 AM

Because there's no argument necessary. You're just being silly, there's no real argument there. There is no defending this. Period. Any attempts to do so will be met with mockery and disappointment because I thought you were better than that.

This is, by FAR, the stupidest thing that has ever happened in this franchise, inarguably and bar none, and I will not listen to any arguments to the contrary. Roshi getting Ultra Instinct off-screen is where I draw the line.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Aug 18th 2018 at 4:10:03 AM

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#86289: Aug 18th 2018 at 4:11:44 AM

Over the top reaction.

10 points.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#86290: Aug 18th 2018 at 4:15:55 AM

UI Roshi is nonsense. Thankfully I long stopped taking DBS manga seriously, so I can just laugh at it.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#86291: Aug 18th 2018 at 4:17:08 AM

Oh, ironically it's amazing and hilarious, don't get me wrong.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#86292: Aug 18th 2018 at 5:01:29 AM

Dragon Ball Super is bad. The manga and anime are bad. Literally only weirdos who stan one over the other seem to think there's some competition going on.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#86293: Aug 18th 2018 at 6:51:29 AM

I gotta agree.

Honestly, at this point I don't really care which way makes more sense (still like the anime better), because neither is perfect, but I'm in no mood to argue it.

I say, we agree to disagree on the matter, as those defending their respective sides have made their respective choices, and this seems like a topic that will set the entire thread a flame if allowed to continue.

One Strip! One Strip!
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#86294: Aug 18th 2018 at 7:43:37 AM

Yea, it's kind of funny. We spend months shitting on the Anime for this type of stuff, but it's ok when the manga does it?

I'm not gonna say the Manga doesnt try to explain things, but the amount of people that try to say its wholly better written than the Anime when its liable to the same pitfalls feels needlessly hypocritical.

And the reverse is true too. It's still so stupid that we have people arguing about what's essentially the same story with the details mixed up.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#86295: Aug 18th 2018 at 8:35:30 AM

The manga's still bad but I prefer it to the anime since it at least tries to explain things. An effort was obviously made which is more than can be said for the anime.

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
galleyfox Since: Feb, 2018
#86296: Aug 18th 2018 at 9:57:20 AM

[up] Is Toyotaro a storyteller or a powerscaler? Half of the narrative issues in his manga occur because he's constantly coming up with new unnecessary "explanations" instead of showing a logical but creative series of events.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#86297: Aug 18th 2018 at 10:07:20 AM

He's not doing the Toriyama right...

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Cross (Don’t ask)
#86298: Aug 18th 2018 at 10:27:25 AM

Haven't we discuss it enough that it isn't a good idea to go full Toriyama?

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#86299: Aug 18th 2018 at 10:29:31 AM

Not recent Bird Man...

But in his prime...yes.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#86300: Aug 18th 2018 at 11:38:27 AM

Because there's no argument necessary. You're just being silly, there's no real argument there. There is no defending this. Period. Any attempts to do so will be met with mockery and disappointment because I thought you were better than that.

Because that's totally productive for discussion and forum behavior.

This is, by FAR, the stupidest thing that has ever happened in this franchise, inarguably and bar none, and I will not listen to any arguments to the contrary. Roshi getting Ultra Instinct off-screen is where I draw the line.

And you're saying this as if Saiga or anyone else said they liked it or didn't think it was stupid, which is explicitly not the case. I honestly can't say this is a fair position given everything about the anime you constantly, and legitimately defended, that so many other people poked constant holes in.

And when I say legitimately defended, I don't mean "Yeah, this is stupid, but not as stupid as {x person} is making it out to be" I mean some genuinely messed up things you've tried to frame as good like the Roshi threatens rape scene.

Edited by LSBK on Aug 18th 2018 at 1:38:20 PM


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