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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#86076: Aug 14th 2018 at 5:53:27 PM

I'd be ok with saying that post Frieza return, Tien decided to start training people in hopes of increasing the number of Earth Warriors someday.

I mean, there may be a time where they need numbers on their side, and I'd call him the next most devoted Martial Artist after Goku and Vegeta...and I guess Piccolo, that is if he still trains and all.

One Strip! One Strip!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#86077: Aug 14th 2018 at 5:55:45 PM

But the farm is way more interesting because it gives him character outside of martial arts.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#86078: Aug 14th 2018 at 5:58:49 PM

Could we say he does both?

I mean, he can create clones of himself. Tenshinhan is a man who can multitask.

Edited by HandsomeRob on Aug 14th 2018 at 7:00:42 AM

One Strip! One Strip!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#86079: Aug 14th 2018 at 6:00:51 PM

The dojo thing, while in character, seems unnecessary and not something you could expand upon much. Like, you know the disciples will never get developed, they're way too tertiary at that point.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#86080: Aug 14th 2018 at 6:02:36 PM

Starting a dojo seems too social for the man who tends to spend most of his time training in the mountains

Maybe a mysterious mountain hermit martial arts master but is Tien going to have to fill out taxes?

I guess Chaotzu can do that since he's not doing anything else

Edited by Bocaj on Aug 14th 2018 at 9:02:22 AM

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#86081: Aug 14th 2018 at 6:05:34 PM

[up][up]

That's a fair point. It always comes back to that huh?

Maybe a mysterious hermit martial arts master but is Tien going to have to fill out taxes?

Honestly, even Roshi doesn't seem to be much for actively finding students. Up until he came across Goku, he was content to just sit on his ass on his Island reading Porno mags. Even after all the disasters that have befallen Earth, he's still made zero effort to try and train anyone else either.

I've said before that no one in Dragonball seems interested in actually teaching others.

One Strip! One Strip!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#86082: Aug 14th 2018 at 6:06:38 PM

I mean, Roshi was specifically disinterested in teaching others.

Darthwyn leader of Inherit from The void Since: Feb, 2016 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
leader of Inherit
#86083: Aug 14th 2018 at 6:07:56 PM

which is probably why people liked Dragon Ball Online where some of the fighters did pass their knowledge to the next generation.

"Shall I use you, or make you mine... I'm not so sure what I'll do." - Dorthy
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#86084: Aug 14th 2018 at 6:14:52 PM

Yeah. The reason why Earth has so few powerful fighters is due to a combination of King Piccolo's rampage, and the survivors (namely Roshi and Crane Hermit) not really putting much effort into training a new generation of fighters.

Roshi had Gohan Sr. and Ox King, then Goku, Krillin and Yamcha. Crane Hermit had Tao, Tien and Chiaoutzu, but they could have been putting a lot more of an effort into it.

One Strip! One Strip!
Ikedatakeshi Baby dango from singapore Since: Nov, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Baby dango
#86085: Aug 14th 2018 at 6:16:59 PM

That and humanity are a pretty weak race. There's nothing of worth to train.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#86086: Aug 14th 2018 at 6:20:00 PM

Yeah. Like, if Roshi and Ten trained a whole generation of Roshis and Tens, you'd have... fuck all.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#86087: Aug 14th 2018 at 6:29:35 PM

Not sure how Earth can protect itself after all the Z-Fighters are dead.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Kamiccolo Since: May, 2018
#86088: Aug 14th 2018 at 6:31:17 PM

Even Yamcha is really strong by regular standards. I believe our perceptions have simply been distorted by Super and GT.

In the context of the original manga and movies, they were pretty consistent that even someone on the level of 1st form Freeza is basically an unstoppable god to the mortals of the universe. The most powerful Saiyan in history by far before was Saiyan arc Vegeta with a power level of 18,000, and not only was he considered a terrifying monster who wiped out hundreds of planets and intimidated the highest god seen up to that point, he was the most powerful being in the universe before the retcons kicked in. Goku had to descend to the Heavens to train with the universe's highest god (at that point) and learn dangerous godly techniques to fight him, and it still wasn't enough.

Ikedatakeshi Baby dango from singapore Since: Nov, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Baby dango
#86089: Aug 14th 2018 at 6:31:28 PM

[up][up]Goku and Vegeta do have kids you know.

Edited by Ikedatakeshi on Aug 14th 2018 at 9:33:51 PM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#86090: Aug 14th 2018 at 6:34:26 PM

[up] Well hopefully the bloodline doesn’t get diluted by too much humanity.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#86091: Aug 14th 2018 at 6:36:38 PM

I wonder if there's any chance of Broly and Paragus staying around after the new movie.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#86092: Aug 14th 2018 at 6:50:30 PM

Paragus was the Babidi / Gero / etc of Broly’s story (that is, the weakling villain who introduces the characters to the larger threat, and then dies to make way for it) and unless that changes I doubt he’ll be making it out of the story.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#86093: Aug 14th 2018 at 7:10:40 PM

Even Yamcha is really strong by regular standards. I believe our perceptions have simply been distorted by Super and GT.

What are the regular standards, though? The highest battle power we have for Yamcha is weak by PTO standards. I'm sure Yamcha got stronger than that, but we don't know if he ever reached the 'mutant' level of Freeza's army.

Between the mutants and all the other exception forces in the universe I don't know that Earth could really stack up with proper training. Like, Earth had a whole bunch of proper martial artists that still never reached the levels of Ten and Kuririn.

Deadpoolrocks Since: Sep, 2010
#86094: Aug 14th 2018 at 7:16:08 PM

anyone else expecting roshi to win in the manga To P instead of 17? the fact that he is still in the final 10 makes me think so

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#86095: Aug 14th 2018 at 7:20:57 PM

That's a possibility I had considered, but I'm not sure how they'd make that a surprise.

Kamiccolo Since: May, 2018
#86096: Aug 14th 2018 at 7:27:27 PM

What are the regular standards, though? The highest battle power we have for Yamcha is weak by PTO standards. I'm sure Yamcha got stronger than that, but we don't know if he ever reached the 'mutant' level of Freeza's army.
The humans are implied to be above the sick base Goku in the Android arc. They were easily maintaining a level of flight speed that he was struggling to. Piccolo noted as much. He was weakened at the time, but not thousands of times weaker or anything.

Even ignoring that though Gero read Yamcha's battle power and thought it was Goku's, who was last clocked at 8,000 - 32,000 and who was expected to make gains over the last 5 years. Also, if Yamcha merely gained as much power proportionally as Goku did in his six months of training on Kaio's planet (Yamcha came at 1,500; Goku went from 400 to 8,000), despite the fact that their training was supposed to be harder than Goku's (IIRC Kaio said something to that effect) and probably more efficient since he had sparring partners (shown to be a very effective training method), he'd be at at least 30,000 by the time he got back to Earth, and higher by an unknown degree four and a half years later (when Gero clocked him).

There's also Yamcha beating up Recoome in the anime, but... eh, Toei. Interestingly though, a V-Jump issue from during the Freeza battle does have Tenshinhan noting that they've gotten a lot stronger since they got to Kaio's planet, even though (like in the Ginyu filler) they'd only been there for a week at that point.

Edited by Kamiccolo on Aug 14th 2018 at 7:33:07 AM

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#86097: Aug 14th 2018 at 7:33:11 PM

I wouldn't read too much into things like the flight speeds (otherwise they should never be able to keep up with Piccolo) or what Goku's heart condition was. Also, we have no idea how strong sick base Goku is, so that really implies nothing about them.

Same thing with Yamcha's reading. The cast members use suppressed battle powers when they're walking around like that, and Goku was still suppressing himself to 5,000 even on Namek. So Yamcha's battle power could be anywhere in the thousands and still be confused with Goku.

There's also the question of individual limits and training returns. The characters have hit walls in their training before, they can't just keep doing the same training and expect the same proportionate results indefinitely. The fact that Tenshinhan officially never surpassed Kuririn puts a pretty hard cap on the humans' growth depending on which source for Kuririn's power you go by (his highest manga reading was only 'over 10,000').

Edited by Saiga on Aug 15th 2018 at 12:35:24 AM

Kamiccolo Since: May, 2018
#86098: Aug 14th 2018 at 7:38:14 PM

I wouldn't read too much into things like the flight speeds (otherwise they should never be able to keep up with Piccolo) or what Goku's heart condition was. Also, we have no idea how strong sick base Goku is, so that really implies nothing about them.
It seems that the pace was being set by Goku, and everyone else was just following it. So Piccolo wouldn't have a reason to go as fast as possible. Plus, a character actually explicitly points out that the level of speed they're maintaining is difficult for the current Goku as opposed to the others, so it's not an error on Toriyama's part or anything to have the humans moving that fast. It's also confirmed when base Vegeta arrives on the scene (Gero calls Piccolo and the others inferior to him) that Piccolo had only been outputting a tiny fraction of his power at that point, which presumably extends to flight.

We don't know exactly how strong sick base Goku is, but he's never implied to be thousands of times weaker than regular Goku, and is at least strong enough to beat up #19. Notably #19, with the addition of sick SS Goku's energy, is not too far off from a healthy Super Saiyan Vegeta and can punch him hard enough to draw blood. So, sick base Goku should still be somewhere in the millions.

Same thing with Yamcha's reading. The cast members use suppressed battle powers when they're walking around like that, and Goku was still suppressing himself to 5,000 even on Namek. So Yamcha's battle power could be anywhere in the thousands and still be confused with Goku.
Gero seemed surprised by this idea later when Piccolo lectured him about it. And also called whatever battle power he was reading "significant" in the context of adding it to his own.
There's also the question of individual limits and training returns. The characters have hit walls in their training before, they can't just keep doing the same training and expect the same proportionate results indefinitely. The fact that Tenshinhan officially never surpassed Kuririn puts a pretty hard cap on the humans' growth depending on which source for Kuririn's power you go by (his highest manga reading was only 'over 10,000').
Its highest explicit reading sure, but we later see he's stronger than Ginyu-Goku (23,000) and is said by Vegeta to be enough to help against Freeza's 530,000 (this being a series where Piccolo explicitly stated that an infinite number of Super Saiyan 2s would not help against someone at Fat Buu's level of power). His power by the end of the Namek arc, much less the Android arc, is pretty much impossible to determine with certainty. Mostly because Vegeta says that his power level is still rising as the fight with Freeza begins in chapter 295: "It seems that even Freeza hasn’t noticed. These two’s battle powers are steadily rising."

Edited by Kamiccolo on Aug 14th 2018 at 7:48:03 AM

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#86099: Aug 14th 2018 at 7:50:47 PM

I'm not saying it's an error, just that it shouldn't be scrutinized so much. Travel speed in DB has never appeared to be that pronounced, otherwise the difference between Gohan's full speed and the speed he was travelling with Videl with (en route to Babidi's ship) should have been way, way faster.

And base Vegeta could also permanently dent 19's face. 19 and 20 are a total mystery for powerscaling.

Gero's comment about Vegeta proves that he's signifanctly more powerful than the humans. Piccolo's comment toward Gero proves that Gero's ideas of how valuable the energy absorbed would be were incorrect.

While I agree that Kuririn ended up stronger than that, it's very possible that Vegeta's comment about their power steadily rising has referred to the multiple times their power has increased since he has met them (and Gohan's zenkai) rather than it literally increasing over time after the potential unlock. It's a little too vague to be certain on anything.

My argument isn't that they're weak, it's that the only stuff we have concrete evidence for are lower readings, and everything after that is too vague and circumstantial to be helpful.

Edited by Saiga on Aug 15th 2018 at 12:51:44 AM

Kamiccolo Since: May, 2018
#86100: Aug 14th 2018 at 7:59:12 PM

I'm not saying it's an error, just that it shouldn't be scrutinized so much. Travel speed in DB has never appeared to be that pronounced, otherwise the difference between Gohan's full speed and the speed he was travelling with Videl with (en route to Babidi's ship) should have been way, way faster.
The actual numbers are inconsistent, but "if your power level is higher you move faster" has always been pretty consistent (for example, Kaio noted that Piccolo and the others got to his planet much quicker than Goku did). Vegeta outright says as much at one point. And the scene did place special emphasis on that point, that Goku was slower than he normally was while the humans were keeping up with that speed no problem.
And base Vegeta could also permanently dent 19's face. 19 and 20 are a total mystery for powerscaling.
Maybe that's the first instance of Memetic Super Off-Guard Hits. Regardless it doesn't invalidate the straightforward fight we get right after.
While I agree that Kuririn ended up stronger than that, it's very possible that Vegeta's comment about their power steadily rising has referred to the multiple times their power has increased since he has met them (and Gohan's zenkai) rather than it literally increasing over time after the potential unlock. It's a little too vague to be certain on anything.
We actually know that it literally increased over time, since Krillin goes from 10,000+ fighting Gurd to 23,000+ fighting Ginyu-Goku to 75,000+ some time between that and fighting Freeza (V-Jump gives him that battle power "after fighting Gurd", presumably because Recoome didn't count as a "fight"), to whatever he was at when he actually engaged Freeza. Vegeta's comment just confirmed that it was still rising at that moment (note the present tense; it is rising, it didn't rise).
Gero's comment about Vegeta proves that he's signifanctly more powerful than the humans. Piccolo's comment toward Gero proves that Gero's ideas of how valuable the energy absorbed would be were incorrect.
It proves he's significantly more powerful than Piccolo, who also there. At least until Piccolo powered up to fight Gero.

Edited by Kamiccolo on Aug 14th 2018 at 7:59:18 AM


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