The "best" human moment in the anime TOP (clearly a work of art) is when charming wacky old Roshi got a female fighter to resign and leave the tournament grounds by threatening to rape her, partly because she was terrified ("I've suppressed my desires, don't you understand that? All that pent up energy... and you've tried to use seduction on me in this state... it is your fault what happens next") and partly because it would ruin her prospects of ever getting married.
Edited by Kamiccolo on Aug 14th 2018 at 3:10:43 AM
Honestly I don't even remember non-rapist Roshi. If that ever even existed.
This song needs more love.Awful with the perversion, but when he was acting as the wise master, he was great.
One of the few characters to hold a legitimate win over Goku, and the one who inspired him to always seek self improvement (though I don't he intended for to forgo everything else in existence).
Perverted Old Man Roshi is the worst thing ever. But Master Roshi, the wise old man who once sacrificed himself trying to stop King Piccolo (ok he missed, but lets try not to be jerks about it...unless you're me, then go ahead) is a cool dude.
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The anime was much, much worse with Roshi's behaviour, adding scenes like him groping 18 in front of Marron and in general, just not retiring that part of his character. In the manga, he's still really bad - he attempts to grope an unconscious girl in her underwear at one point - but over time that aspect of him is used less and less. And it doesn't come in in the many scenes where he is used as a serious fighter/mentor. Eventually Roshi was phased out of the manga, but his perverted side was phased out sooner so we had more of him as a wise mentor without that side.
I agree. If you really must use the characters, use them in the slice of life. Then you can have much varied character interactions. It's a damn shame that Super didn't go with the 'farm ending' for Tenshinhan, because then Goku and Tenshinhan could have farming episodes together.
No it isn't. I don't even know how you came to such a conclusion, because the concept is far more versatile than that and appears in media which don't have weaker characters to shine. So you can't authoritatively state what the point is. The manga never indicated that this is a chance for the weaker characters to shine, so it did nothing wrong there.
The one time OP had an official battle royale Luffy was the only Straw Hat involved. One Piece does NOT do this as often as made out to be, not every arc is Enies Lobby (even that had Robin as a damsel and gave Namia joke fight). Furthermore, even if OP were like that, it's a significantly different series from DB and not every series should strive to be the same.
I didn't say it was. I was literally arguing against that idea.
But that's not all they did. They didn't just fudge the power levels, they made up reasons why the humans would be relevant which didn't have any basis. Ikedatakeshi already pointed out how they used tropes that didn't fit the characters, like making Roshi the Wise Old Master who was so experienced. That's not fudging the power gaps so that his experience can come into play, because it wasn't a huge deal back when the power gaps were tiny. Early DB had Roshi surpassed without him continuing to be relevant because 'experience' or schooling way stronger opponents because 'skill'. They just made that up, and completely contradicted the way DB used to handle this stuff. Furthermore, there's never even been any evidence that the humans are supposed to be more skilled.
Plus stuff like the Tenshinhan episode is just an illogical use of his powers beyond the power inconsistency. They tried to show how he could be useful, and failed to make sense of it.
That's being incredibly hyperbolic. It's very frustrating that you continue to exaggerate any point that other people make, and say that something they care about must be the only thing/most important thing they care about.
Power levels aren't the most important thing for the story, but they are important to me, so I'm not just going to ignore them being used as incredibly poorly as the Super anime was. Furthermore, the usage of the humans is not just about power levels, it's about their usage in the manga and the story feeling like a natural continuation. The way the anime used them does not feel like a natural continuation of the manga, it feels like pandering and milking them which is jarring. So it goes against the characters and story as well, because these are not the characters that should be used and not the way the characters should be used.
My issue is that I don't believe the story is made better by retconning the humans' strength or achievements, or trying to make them look better. Furthermore, a better writer should be able to write what they want without having a total contradiction - retcons do not need to be inherently contradictory - so it's almost always better not to have a retcon.
The episodes for Roshi, Ten and Kuririn did not make a better arc even when you set aside the power and logic inconsistencies. They're bad episodes, do not help the pacing, and are just milking the characters. That's why I have an issue with them. It's not that they did something wrong to achieve something good, it's that they did something wrong to achieve something bad.
No, that kind of thinking makes the transformations/base levels pointless. The Saiyans are meant to be a powerful race WITH transformations, not just because of it. If everyone can reach base Saiyan or SS1 level, than that actually makes the Saiyans look quite weak. Especially when it's the previously weakest race we've seen. Goku was meant to be more special than the humans before Super Saiyan was a thing, tossing that out would clearly not make sense in-universe and would be obvious out-of-universe writing to make the humans better. That's incredibly lazy, and the humans do not deserve for the story to be warped to benefit them.
That's not because Kuririn was in the tournament. It's because he got multiple K Os, got to save 18 (ugh, why do people always have to write this), and got to fight on seemingly equal terms with her. That is definitely way above what he should be doing.
Edited by Saiga on Aug 14th 2018 at 9:50:25 PM
Ok, I admit the saving 18 thing was bad. Even as someone who likes Krillin, propping him up at her expense is frustrating (even though lots of characters have used the Krill-ster as a stepping stone for looking impressive), because it would never happen if the genders were reversed and he was the stronger of the two.
That's mainly an inability to get past traditional gender roles that seems to be a thing in Japan. I wouldn't say he fought on equal terms with her though. They did a shared elimination via a team up move they invented, but she's still clearly stronger. And the multiple KO's shouldn't be an issue either if he fights someone weaker, or gives another character an opening to eliminate someone (as there are lots of dudes who're probably weaker or as strong than Krillin there, and not all of them are gonna be taken out by the stronger fighters).
You know what? It kinda is. I wonder why Toei ignored it and went with him starting a dojo (though It think if any character would decide to start teaching martial arts, it's Tien)?
Edited by HandsomeRob on Aug 14th 2018 at 6:02:35 AM
One Strip! One Strip!Well, maybe because the farming stuff was only in an interview with Toriyama and they don't have some series bible to reference.
Also maybe because the dojo was seen as cooler/more impressive.
Anyway, I don't think that 18 was clearly portrayed as stronger than Kuririn for the episode that they teemed up. They definitely fought on the same level (not meaning the exact same strength) for that part of it.
Well, though it doesn't come up as much, 18 isn't as much of a martial artist as Krillin.
She was a former street punk who was suddenly made into one of the most powerful warriors on the planet and was strong enough (alone with having enough stamina) to fight against and win over said warriors with ease.
In terms of fighting technique, she's probably pretty basic, even if her power far eclipses her husband. There's never been any indication that 17 and 18 know any advanced techniques beyond android stuff like 17's barrier.
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...and? That is completely irrelevant. Goku is the best martial artist ever but he admitted he'd be helpless against the Androids.
Piccolo and 17 were even in power, and so they fought evenly. The Androids aren't incompetent at hand to hand.
No, but there are many more characters than just the humans.
Edited by Saiga on Aug 14th 2018 at 10:35:39 PM
Fair enough on the Piccolo and 17 thing. I guess as long as you can throw a punch properly, and when you are that strong, you don't need much in the way of fancy techniques.
Plus, that was one of the series best fights, so it'd be a crime to downplay it for any reason. Hence, I bow out of the argument.
Though Hellzone Grenade was pretty nifty. It would probably be a great crowd clearing technique...in a show where mass battles were a thing which DB doesn't do very often...barring recent arcs in Super mind you.
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Yeah, Goku headbutting Piccolo's ribs knocked him out cold, but the actual ruling was a victory by ring-out, which never fails to amuse me.