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PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#86051: Aug 14th 2018 at 3:02:47 PM

Yeah, Goku headbutting Piccolo's ribs knocked him out cold, but the actual ruling was a victory by ring-out, which never fails to amuse me.

Kamiccolo Since: May, 2018
#86052: Aug 14th 2018 at 3:08:08 PM

The "best" human moment in the anime TOP (clearly a work of art) is when charming wacky old Roshi got a female fighter to resign and leave the tournament grounds by threatening to rape her, partly because she was terrified ("I've suppressed my desires, don't you understand that? All that pent up energy... and you've tried to use seduction on me in this state... it is your fault what happens next") and partly because it would ruin her prospects of ever getting married.

Edited by Kamiccolo on Aug 14th 2018 at 3:10:43 AM

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#86053: Aug 14th 2018 at 3:16:47 PM

Wow.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#86054: Aug 14th 2018 at 3:56:59 PM

Yeah that was fucking garbage.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#86055: Aug 14th 2018 at 4:05:10 PM

It's just wacky old Roshi.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#86056: Aug 14th 2018 at 4:08:00 PM

Sad we don’t see more of Master Rossi than old man Roshi.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#86057: Aug 14th 2018 at 4:17:27 PM

Honestly I don't even remember non-rapist Roshi. If that ever even existed.

This song needs more love.
Demetrios Making darkness adorable since 1999 from Des Plaines, Illinois (unfortunately) Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#86059: Aug 14th 2018 at 4:25:37 PM

[up][up]Training?

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#86060: Aug 14th 2018 at 4:28:07 PM

I mean apparently the manga toned him down overtime (or maybe he just got less focus) while the anime kept going with the bit.

I haven't read all of the manga though, so I can't say for sure. For those who have read it, what's your verdict on Roshi's behavior?

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#86061: Aug 14th 2018 at 4:32:57 PM

Awful with the perversion, but when he was acting as the wise master, he was great.

One of the few characters to hold a legitimate win over Goku, and the one who inspired him to always seek self improvement (though I don't he intended for to forgo everything else in existence).

Perverted Old Man Roshi is the worst thing ever. But Master Roshi, the wise old man who once sacrificed himself trying to stop King Piccolo (ok he missed, but lets try not to be jerks about it...unless you're me, then go ahead) is a cool dude.

One Strip! One Strip!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#86062: Aug 14th 2018 at 4:46:25 PM

[up][up] The anime was much, much worse with Roshi's behaviour, adding scenes like him groping 18 in front of Marron and in general, just not retiring that part of his character. In the manga, he's still really bad - he attempts to grope an unconscious girl in her underwear at one point - but over time that aspect of him is used less and less. And it doesn't come in in the many scenes where he is used as a serious fighter/mentor. Eventually Roshi was phased out of the manga, but his perverted side was phased out sooner so we had more of him as a wise mentor without that side.

I would be the one that say they shouldn't any form of spotlight at all beyond some Slice-of-Life filler. They don't have anything they can do well in terms of things that matter(fighting), and by drawing attention to them you only display how illogical everything is and how little effort they actually put in. Toei didn't give those moments because they gave a shit about the characters, they are just milking them for what they're worth, which is why they used blatant nostalgic imagery and lazy stock tropes (like the old master being super experienced despite every other character having faced much stronger enemy and trained under more experienced fighters)

I agree. If you really must use the characters, use them in the slice of life. Then you can have much varied character interactions. It's a damn shame that Super didn't go with the 'farm ending' for Tenshinhan, because then Goku and Tenshinhan could have farming episodes together.

Okay, I wrote out a long and all-caps rant, but it was in poor taste, so I decided against it. TL:DR, and put more politely, the whole point of a battle royal tournament is to give the weaker characters a chance to shine fighting weaker opponents. If you don't do that, you're failing at writing a proper battle royal.

No it isn't. I don't even know how you came to such a conclusion, because the concept is far more versatile than that and appears in media which don't have weaker characters to shine. So you can't authoritatively state what the point is. The manga never indicated that this is a chance for the weaker characters to shine, so it did nothing wrong there.

Not even battle royal specifically, it's just massive battles in general. One Piece does it best, consistently giving each crewmember their own fight to show off what they can do and contribute, even though Luffy theoretically could defeat all their opponents with ease himself.

The one time OP had an official battle royale Luffy was the only Straw Hat involved. One Piece does NOT do this as often as made out to be, not every arc is Enies Lobby (even that had Robin as a damsel and gave Namia joke fight). Furthermore, even if OP were like that, it's a significantly different series from DB and not every series should strive to be the same.

See, while I get that Frieza feeding them to Frost does help with the former gaining the trust of the latter, I don't really think it makes Frost look competent. How does defeating guys who are always outmatched and getting taken out first make Frost, who's already far stronger than them, look competent?

I didn't say it was. I was literally arguing against that idea.

That's a really over the top way of saying it fudged the gaps between power levels. And it's not really that big a deal if higher tier characters are only 200 times more powerful than lower tier characters instead of 50,000 times. Certainly not worth that kind of extreme distaste.

But that's not all they did. They didn't just fudge the power levels, they made up reasons why the humans would be relevant which didn't have any basis. Ikedatakeshi already pointed out how they used tropes that didn't fit the characters, like making Roshi the Wise Old Master who was so experienced. That's not fudging the power gaps so that his experience can come into play, because it wasn't a huge deal back when the power gaps were tiny. Early DB had Roshi surpassed without him continuing to be relevant because 'experience' or schooling way stronger opponents because 'skill'. They just made that up, and completely contradicted the way DB used to handle this stuff. Furthermore, there's never even been any evidence that the humans are supposed to be more skilled.

Plus stuff like the Tenshinhan episode is just an illogical use of his powers beyond the power inconsistency. They tried to show how he could be useful, and failed to make sense of it.

I don't know, it often comes across like you think consistent power levels are the most important thing in a story, when it reality they should be lower priority compared to many other things. Power levels shouldn't write the plot, the characters and story should be first and foremost. It's not an unforgivable sin that Krillin lasted a couple episodes instead of five seconds, no matter how "logical" you think it should be.

That's being incredibly hyperbolic. It's very frustrating that you continue to exaggerate any point that other people make, and say that something they care about must be the only thing/most important thing they care about.

Power levels aren't the most important thing for the story, but they are important to me, so I'm not just going to ignore them being used as incredibly poorly as the Super anime was. Furthermore, the usage of the humans is not just about power levels, it's about their usage in the manga and the story feeling like a natural continuation. The way the anime used them does not feel like a natural continuation of the manga, it feels like pandering and milking them which is jarring. So it goes against the characters and story as well, because these are not the characters that should be used and not the way the characters should be used.

It's fine to retcon things if it makes the story better.

My issue is that I don't believe the story is made better by retconning the humans' strength or achievements, or trying to make them look better. Furthermore, a better writer should be able to write what they want without having a total contradiction - retcons do not need to be inherently contradictory - so it's almost always better not to have a retcon.

The episodes for Roshi, Ten and Kuririn did not make a better arc even when you set aside the power and logic inconsistencies. They're bad episodes, do not help the pacing, and are just milking the characters. That's why I have an issue with them. It's not that they did something wrong to achieve something good, it's that they did something wrong to achieve something bad.

It's not like the Humans are any kind of threat to the precious Saiyans regardless. Just putting them around the same tier as the base Saiyans still doesn't have them anywhere near Goku's 7 higher transformations. Like, the Saiyans have so many transformations at this point that why not put the humans at their untransformed level, it's not like base Saiyan is particularly impressive anymore anyway.

No, that kind of thinking makes the transformations/base levels pointless. The Saiyans are meant to be a powerful race WITH transformations, not just because of it. If everyone can reach base Saiyan or SS1 level, than that actually makes the Saiyans look quite weak. Especially when it's the previously weakest race we've seen. Goku was meant to be more special than the humans before Super Saiyan was a thing, tossing that out would clearly not make sense in-universe and would be obvious out-of-universe writing to make the humans better. That's incredibly lazy, and the humans do not deserve for the story to be warped to benefit them.

??? Saiga has said multiple times that he thinks Krillin's modest performance in the TOP is waaaaay more than he should have gotten, and that Krillin getting knocked out without doing anything at all in the manga is way better because it shows he should never have been allowed to compete.

That's not because Kuririn was in the tournament. It's because he got multiple K Os, got to save 18 (ugh, why do people always have to write this), and got to fight on seemingly equal terms with her. That is definitely way above what he should be doing.

Edited by Saiga on Aug 14th 2018 at 9:50:25 PM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#86063: Aug 14th 2018 at 5:00:10 PM

[up] Oh my God, Tien & Goku farming.

Fuck that is the biggest missed opportunity since non-sliced bread.

Edited by slimcoder on Aug 14th 2018 at 5:02:03 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#86064: Aug 14th 2018 at 5:02:09 PM

That's not because Kuririn was in the tournament. It's because he got multiple K Os, got to save 18 (ugh, why do people always have to write this), and got to fight on seemingly equal terms with her. That is definitely way above what he should be doing.

Ok, I admit the saving 18 thing was bad. Even as someone who likes Krillin, propping him up at her expense is frustrating (even though lots of characters have used the Krill-ster as a stepping stone for looking impressive), because it would never happen if the genders were reversed and he was the stronger of the two.

That's mainly an inability to get past traditional gender roles that seems to be a thing in Japan. I wouldn't say he fought on equal terms with her though. They did a shared elimination via a team up move they invented, but she's still clearly stronger. And the multiple KO's shouldn't be an issue either if he fights someone weaker, or gives another character an opening to eliminate someone (as there are lots of dudes who're probably weaker or as strong than Krillin there, and not all of them are gonna be taken out by the stronger fighters).

[up]You know what? It kinda is. I wonder why Toei ignored it and went with him starting a dojo (though It think if any character would decide to start teaching martial arts, it's Tien)?

Edited by HandsomeRob on Aug 14th 2018 at 6:02:35 AM

One Strip! One Strip!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#86065: Aug 14th 2018 at 5:26:04 PM

Well, maybe because the farming stuff was only in an interview with Toriyama and they don't have some series bible to reference.

Also maybe because the dojo was seen as cooler/more impressive.

Anyway, I don't think that 18 was clearly portrayed as stronger than Kuririn for the episode that they teemed up. They definitely fought on the same level (not meaning the exact same strength) for that part of it.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#86066: Aug 14th 2018 at 5:31:06 PM

Well, though it doesn't come up as much, 18 isn't as much of a martial artist as Krillin.

She was a former street punk who was suddenly made into one of the most powerful warriors on the planet and was strong enough (alone with having enough stamina) to fight against and win over said warriors with ease.

In terms of fighting technique, she's probably pretty basic, even if her power far eclipses her husband. There's never been any indication that 17 and 18 know any advanced techniques beyond android stuff like 17's barrier.

One Strip! One Strip!
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#86067: Aug 14th 2018 at 5:32:53 PM

Uh but she has trained with Krillen on occasion.

How else would she know the disc?

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
GAP Formerly G.G. from Who Knows? Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: In love with love
Formerly G.G.
#86068: Aug 14th 2018 at 5:33:09 PM

So the characters are just fodder for Goku and his current rival to show up to (barely) save the day?

"Mai waifu."
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#86069: Aug 14th 2018 at 5:35:55 PM

[up][up][up] ...and? That is completely irrelevant. Goku is the best martial artist ever but he admitted he'd be helpless against the Androids.

Piccolo and 17 were even in power, and so they fought evenly. The Androids aren't incompetent at hand to hand.

[up] No, but there are many more characters than just the humans.

Edited by Saiga on Aug 14th 2018 at 10:35:39 PM

Eagal Since: Apr, 2012
#86070: Aug 14th 2018 at 5:35:57 PM

[up][up]Welcome to Dragon Ball.

Edited by Eagal on Aug 14th 2018 at 5:37:53 AM

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#86071: Aug 14th 2018 at 5:37:00 PM

This isn't just 'Goku and the humans'. They're not the second tier of characters, it's weird that people are acting like them not being important means that no-one but Goku is important.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#86072: Aug 14th 2018 at 5:41:29 PM

I mean, it's not like things don't lean in that direction sometimes.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#86074: Aug 14th 2018 at 5:46:59 PM

Fair enough on the Piccolo and 17 thing. I guess as long as you can throw a punch properly, and when you are that strong, you don't need much in the way of fancy techniques.

Plus, that was one of the series best fights, so it'd be a crime to downplay it for any reason. Hence, I bow out of the argument.

Though Hellzone Grenade was pretty nifty. It would probably be a great crowd clearing technique...in a show where mass battles were a thing which DB doesn't do very often...barring recent arcs in Super mind you.

One Strip! One Strip!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder

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