TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Dragon Ball

Go To

Ikedatakeshi Baby dango from singapore Since: Nov, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Baby dango
#86026: Aug 14th 2018 at 9:11:57 AM

You're only proving the point on how illogical them catching up, which I agree with but I'm trying to find some kind way that would have been an improvement over what we've got.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#86027: Aug 14th 2018 at 9:18:52 AM

"I was in the room of spirit and time and the door got locked so I've been in there for fifty years doing situps, pushups, crossfit and plenty of special power goo and now finally I can say that I'm on the level of super saiyan 1 after an actual fifty years of effort."
"Thats so sad."
"Also, I'm fifty years older."
"At least you were already bald. And hey, your wife was gonna outlive you anyway."
"I'm going to go win an actual fight and then cry."

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#86028: Aug 14th 2018 at 9:22:48 AM

It's not like Toriyama is shy about retconning or quietly ignoring things he finds inconvenient for making the plot go where he wants it to

True dat.

Anyway, being as he'd more or less retired the humans, as much as I've liked them being back in action (despite the flaws) I wish he'd just commit to not using them anymore.

Krillin at least got to get married and have a wife and child. He got the best ending of the 4 fighting humans (even if it turned 18 into a reward for him, which I hate because she deserves better than being someone's reward, but besides Bulma, the only humans who get screwed worse than the main 4 are the female humans).

One Strip! One Strip!
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#86029: Aug 14th 2018 at 9:30:07 AM

I had a good response, but then my browser refreshes sooo.

Rule of Cool and Rule of Fun shouldn't come at the expense of internal consistency and logic.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
UdtheImp from Stamford, CT (Series 2) Relationship Status: The Skitty to my Wailord
#86030: Aug 14th 2018 at 9:43:38 AM

[up]Only exception is when Negative Continuity is in effect, but Dragon Ball itself has a deep enough continuity that is averts it. Thus, no excuse.

DAMMIT MARK, STOP HITTING HELPY!!
Kamiccolo Since: May, 2018
#86031: Aug 14th 2018 at 10:16:35 AM

I'm like 90% sure that Roshi is still in the tournament because Gohan intends to use the Mafuba.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#86032: Aug 14th 2018 at 10:39:01 AM

Gohan doesn't know the Mafuuba, and has never seen it.

Though considering how everyone just instantly learns an attack (except Yamcha) it wouldn't surprise me if he could learn it after seeing it one time.

One Strip! One Strip!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#86033: Aug 14th 2018 at 10:46:20 AM

Trunks learning the Mafuba in 5 minutes by watching Piccolo do it in a video is one of the stupidest things in this franchise. Goku should have just tagged out for Trunks using Instant Transmission and telepathically told him to bring Zamasu to where he was after he prepared the pot.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Aug 14th 2018 at 10:46:34 AM

Kamiccolo Since: May, 2018
#86034: Aug 14th 2018 at 10:56:56 AM

Goku uses it in the manga. Either Gohan will use it or Roshi will with Gohan running assist.

Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#86035: Aug 14th 2018 at 11:12:07 AM

That makes sense. Gohan taking down Kefla on his own would be silly, so redoing "Gohan sacrifices himself to take down Dyspo" as "Gohan sacrifices himself to hold down Kefla so Roshi can Evil Containment Wave them both off the stage" would be a neat way to do things.

Kamiccolo Since: May, 2018
#86036: Aug 14th 2018 at 11:36:08 AM

It was probably in Toriyama's outline that Gohan sacrifices himself to take out one far more powerful fighter, but Toyo and Toei chose differently on just who that was.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#86037: Aug 14th 2018 at 12:14:30 PM

That's a really over the top way of saying it fudged the gaps between power levels. And it's not really that big a deal if higher tier characters are only 200 times more powerful than lower tier characters instead of 50,000 times. Certainly not worth that kind of extreme distaste.

I'm not really sure what you think you're saying here. Two-hundred times stronger is still a ridiculous gap that shouldn't be as easily surmounted as the anime made it out to be. The point isn't what the exact gap is, just that it wasn't portrayed consistently or in a way that made any sense.

I don't know, it often comes across like you think consistent power levels are the most important thing in a story, when it reality they should be lower priority compared to many other things. Power levels shouldn't write the plot, the characters and story should be first and foremost. It's not an unforgivable sin that Krillin lasted a couple episodes instead of five seconds, no matter how "logical" you think it should be.

If I don't buy anything that's happening makes sense in the context of the work, I'd say that's pretty important. Power levels are a part of the characters and story in Dragon Ball, a very large part of it in fact. I know soooooo many people hate that fact, but it's true. If you, personally don't care, well more power to you. But people can and will care, and they have just as much a right to do so.

Even without the power level wankery the Anime's Tournament of Power had tons of problems, but that's a different issue. You can't have reasonable discussions if you're unwilling to at least entertain the idea that criticisms that you don't share can still be valid.

Saiga, for his part at least actually said he wouldn't mind Roshi sticking to the end in the manga because it could be a sign in a super chaotic fight even weaklings might be able to last by slipping through the cracks. He said nothing about it being "bad" that Krillin lasted a couple of episodes instead of five seconds.

Edited by LSBK on Aug 14th 2018 at 2:41:47 PM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#86038: Aug 14th 2018 at 12:18:25 PM

Wait if power levels should be completely disregarded then logically Chi-Chi should have finished off Super Buu with that slap.

Power levels or power scaling is an important as Hell thing. It’s why you can’t write a story that ends Batman punching out Darkseid with a normal punch.

It’s fucking bullshit.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#86039: Aug 14th 2018 at 12:23:40 PM

Like, for the most part I was perfectly willing to try and turn off my brain and just enjoy the ride in the anime. There were a lot of things that made me go "This doesn't really make sense" or "Okay, doesn't this contradict what happened two episodes ago?" but except for the cheap plays at emotion I could mostly let it slide.

I understand why someone wouldn't share my (or someone else's) issues with how things were done, but the insistence that they aren't valid issues for people to be put-off by is very irritating.

Edited by LSBK on Aug 14th 2018 at 2:31:25 PM

Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#86040: Aug 14th 2018 at 1:34:36 PM

I'm not really sure what you think you're saying here. Two-hundred times stronger is still a ridiculous gap that shouldn't be as easily surmounted as the anime made it out to be. The point isn't what the exact gap is, just that it wasn't portrayed consistently or in a way that made any sense.

The exact numbers don't matter at all. The point is that Krillin is still portrayed as being in a much lower tier than Goku, but people are still complaining that the strength difference is slightly less astronomical.

He said nothing about it being "bad" that Krillin lasted a couple of episodes instead of five seconds.

??? Saiga has said multiple times that he thinks Krillin's modest performance in the TOP is waaaaay more than he should have gotten, and that Krillin getting knocked out without doing anything at all in the manga is way better because it shows he should never have been allowed to compete.

Wait if power levels should be completely disregarded then logically Chi-Chi should have finished off Super Buu with that slap.

I agree. Which is why its good that nothing even close to that happened in the show.

I get that some people can't turn off their brains sometimes, but I believe having such an extreme reaction to it and acting like power levels always being exact is more important than story and characters shows a misplaced sense of priorities.

Edited by Moth13 on Aug 14th 2018 at 4:34:25 AM

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#86041: Aug 14th 2018 at 1:57:14 PM

Saiga has said multiple times that he thinks Krillin's modest performance in the TOP is waaaaay more than he should have gotten, and that Krillin getting knocked out without doing anything at all in the manga is way better because it shows he should never have been allowed to compete.

Well, Saiga is right that he never should have competed in the first place.

I do like that the anime let him do something (taking out 2 opponents via assist, and one on his own). That's certainly more than his manga self.

I can see where Saiga is coming from, but since he was in, there were probably plenty of scrubs that Krillin could have been fighting with, instead of getting instantly pwned by Frost after barely a few minutes.

One Strip! One Strip!
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#86042: Aug 14th 2018 at 2:00:34 PM

Prolly should have just went with a typical tournament format.

Maybe put in even tiers & weight classes.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#86043: Aug 14th 2018 at 2:01:08 PM

[up][up][up]You shouldn't tell other people what their priorities are when it comes to their enjoyment of fiction. Disagree? Certainly. But saying they're flat out wrong? Bad form.

It's only misplaced if you refuse to admit that power levels are a part of the character and story. I can understand preferring stories where there isn't as much focus, but Dragon Ball isn't that kind of thing. It's going to be jarring for some that Super decided "nope" on that, and you can't just say "I like it better" because your subjective opinion frankly means nothing when talking about other people's subjective opinions.

Like someone else said, if you want to enjoy Krillin and Tien, give them their own stories. But don't get upset when people are annoyed that Super tries to pretend they're useful in actually serious fighting situations, because that point was passed a long time ago.

Edited by LSBK on Aug 14th 2018 at 4:56:27 AM

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#86044: Aug 14th 2018 at 2:02:55 PM

Base Goku being stronger than Krillin was important back when Goku didn't have a transformation that made him 50 times stronger. Nowadays, Goku has 7 or 8 different transformations, the strongest of which easily makes him at least 1,000,000 times stronger AND completely maxes out his combat skill. Letting Krillin be almost as strong as base Goku is the least they could do.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#86045: Aug 14th 2018 at 2:08:02 PM

[up][up]That's kinda the thing I think.

Dragon ball doesn't really seem to be into creating side stories for these other characters. Their role is to survive until Goku comes. Not necessarily a bad role, but it's a role we've been seeing them in for years.

And yet, we can't stall the plot or ignore Power Levels in order to give them glory either. That's disingenuous.

It's too late for them to make a difference, but Toei and Toriyama are both uninterested in really getting rid of them or in focusing on other things they do besides fighting (well probably more Toriyama than Toei, as they did do a lot of Slice of Life episodes, even if they were of questionable quality).

And even with those side stories, they kinda run into a reverse problem: they are so strong that no one is a challenge to them. They've long since outgrown Earth based threats (though the Red Ribbon Army keeps managing to be a thing in the games), and most Alien threats are above their weight class either.

So writing them out and focusing on their non fighting lives seems like the best bet. It's just a matter of someone being willing to commit to that.

[up]That depends on if you think Krillin is owed that or not.

Some would say yes, some would say he's owed nothing.

I would say that if they did that, it would need to mean something beyond the next enemy still being head and shoulders above him.

Edited by HandsomeRob on Aug 14th 2018 at 3:09:29 AM

One Strip! One Strip!
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#86046: Aug 14th 2018 at 2:16:15 PM

To make a tournament I think you need character development (what drives a character, their growth, the emotional core), personal rivalries (really wanting to beat up a specific person), varied abilities (obvious), & plot (definition could vary, it generally can means the story's that goes on around the tournament & in the ring like wanting to assassinate a specific character or the higher ups are planning something).

There's a bit of a lack of this or just not done very well in the TOP.

Edited by slimcoder on Aug 14th 2018 at 2:18:28 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#86047: Aug 14th 2018 at 2:38:41 PM

Character Development: 17 got an arc about being human, Vegeta got an arc about having pride in his family, Gohan got an arc about becoming a leader willing to make sacrifices, Piccolo got an arc about Gohan growing up, Roshi got an arc about Krillin and Goku inspiring him back into action, 18 shared 17's arc about being human, with a dash of the Power of Love, and Ultra Instinct "Omen" showed Goku going through a character arc about being worried about the consequences of the tournament. The one part that should've gotten more focus is Goku being seen as a villain for starting the tournament, which leads into section 2.

Personal Rivalries: Goku wanting to fight Jiren because he's strong is actually fine, Goku started this whole tournament because he wanted to fight strong guys. Jiren wanting to fight Goku because he thinks Goku is this evil Blood Knight, on the other hand, would've been a fantastic way to give Jiren some early characterization. It also would've provided a great parallel for their final fight where Jiren, the superhero, has a mental breakdown about being solitary and attacks the "supervillain" Goku's friends in the audience just to prove a point.

Varied Abilities: TONS. The majority of Tournament of Power contestants had unique powers that are either never-before-seen or rarely seen in this franchise, from lightning to poison to slime body to mecha fusing to super speed.

Plot: Dragon Ball tends to avoid the Not Just a Tournament trope. The only instance where it did happen was in the Buu Saga, where they ditched the tournament really early on for a completely different plot. That said, there were hints all throughout the arc that something shady was going on in the background, and the stakes were so absurdly high that something had to be up. The whole thing being a Secret Test of Character is a bit shallow of a pay-off, granted.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Aug 14th 2018 at 2:39:01 AM

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#86048: Aug 14th 2018 at 2:54:52 PM

Plot: Dragon Ball tends to avoid the Not Just a Tournament trope. The only instance where it did happen was in the Buu Saga, where they ditched the tournament really early on for a completely different plot. That said, there were hints all throughout the arc that something shady was going on in the background, and the stakes were so absurdly high that something had to be up. The whole thing being a Secret Test of Character is a bit shallow of a pay-off, granted.

Technically, they ditched it in the 23rd Budokai what with Piccolo threatening to rofl-stomp the world if Goku lost...it's just that they played the Tournament Arc straight at the same time, since they were fighting for the sake of the world, and because Goku wanted to win the Tournament.

One Strip! One Strip!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#86049: Aug 14th 2018 at 2:58:55 PM

The fight also ended with a ring-out.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#86050: Aug 14th 2018 at 3:01:05 PM

It was a knockout of what was left of the ring. Piccolo couldn't fight anymore at that point.

It was both a tournament fight (because Goku insisted on still treating it as such) and higher stakes fight at the same time.

One Strip! One Strip!

Total posts: 130,800
Top