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MightyMatilda Mr. Clueless from New Jersey, USA Since: Jan, 2015
Mr. Clueless
#85751: Jul 28th 2018 at 6:46:50 PM

@Saiga: "I don't think OP's main cast is bloated, because the Straw Hats are small."

I don't think of nine characters as being a small main cast. Probably because I think of five characters as being the normal amount, and nine is nearly twice that.

De Romanīs, lingua Latina gloriosa non fuī.
galleyfox Since: Feb, 2018
#85752: Jul 28th 2018 at 6:47:37 PM

I don't think the Buu arc would have to be rewritten that much. Just have Dende improve the Earth Dragonballs after the Cell arc so that they can grant three wishes and bring people back to life more than once. It's the same thing that Toriyama did with the Namek Dragononballs anyway. Then have Dende hold onto the Dragonballs instead of wasting a wish on the people killed by the tournament. Also Goku doesn't look so bad for saving Dende over his kids.

In fact, the sagging middle section of the Buu arc could have been helped if there had been a Dragonball subplot involved. Have somebody like Dabura steal a Dragonball or maybe Buu swallows one. Something to keep them offlimits and to give the characters a secondary goal beyond defeating Buu.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#85753: Jul 28th 2018 at 6:50:12 PM

Of course in One Piece the crew being split has been the de facto state for years now. They haven't all been together since the beginning of the Dressrosa, and now they have another member who still has to make his own journey to get to the rest.

Edited by LSBK on Jul 28th 2018 at 8:50:36 AM

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#85754: Jul 28th 2018 at 7:50:49 PM

Yea, One Piece's main cast is pretty large as 9 main characters (about to be 10) is pretty hard to keep track of. It's why Oda has been splitting them up more lately to allow him to focus on them better.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#85755: Jul 28th 2018 at 8:17:42 PM

Stuff like 18 tossing Kuririn off the look-out (like Popo and Dende)

Even as someone who likes Krillin:

1) I'd reverse that...you know, provided we ignore how Krillin could do that;

2) Where's Maron in that equation Saiga?

Of course, I'd just have 18 actually managed to get away with Maron, instead of having them be the next immediate victims of Buu (with his shot even flat out missing everyone else and hitting them when they weren't even in his line of sight) as though Toriyama went out of his way to make Krillin's efforts to save them worthless...unless that happening was just what the anime did, then never mind.

Next, we discuss why you hate Children Saiga? Why the hate?

One Strip! One Strip!
Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#85756: Jul 28th 2018 at 8:19:06 PM

I feel like Super Boo eating everyone wasn't shown in the manga, only the anime. I can't really remember, though.

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#85757: Jul 28th 2018 at 9:16:39 PM

[up][up] That makes no sense - 18 hasn't died before, Kuririn has. That was about making the series work without multiple resurrections.

I wouldn't upgrade the Earth D Bs to allow multiple mass rezzes. It totally kills tension.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#85758: Jul 28th 2018 at 9:22:11 PM

[up]

Well yeah. I you were Krillin, you'd want your wife and daughter who have never died, and stood a better chance of being revived to survive (though you'd also want them to not die in the first place).

Plus, 18 could protect Maron better than Krillin could (which is admittedly not that much against Buu, but she's still the better choice to escape).

I mean, it's pretty much the same logic he used when he rushed at Buu.

Sure, from a pragmatic point of view, 18 throwing Krillin makes more sense. It's a matter of which you think is better: saving the stronger one to protect their daughter, or the one who has less of a chance of coming back.

One Strip! One Strip!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#85759: Jul 28th 2018 at 9:47:34 PM

No, I'm talking about the story. You wouldn't permanently kill Kuririn there.

And there's no way in hell 18 would allow that.

XMenMutant22 The Feline Follies of Felix the Cat Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Hoping Senpai notices me
#85760: Jul 28th 2018 at 11:28:20 PM

Now that the Dragon Ball Movie Frontline series has finished recapping all of the Dragon Ball (Z) movies, we finally have a new interview of Super Movie: Broly's producer Norihiro Hayashida (translated by Kanzenshuu's Herms98, as usual):

  • "[Hayashida] reaffirms (DB Room chief) Akio Iyoku’s previous statement that the film will be a “grand space opera”: “I wondered if DB could pull that off, but it all clicked once I read the storyline.”
  • This time around [the Dragon Room staff made] sure to leave enough time for Toriyama to check over everything (something they couldn’t really do before, but the creation of the Dragon Ball Room has helped with that). ”
  • "They received the storyline in June 2017 and spent from then until October going over the anime designs and whatnot. Toriyama confirmed things whenever the DB Room staff couldn’t decide something on their own, with Akio Iyoku doing a lot of back-and-forth with Toriyama.”
  • "Hayashida wanted an animation staff who could provide a properly cinematic sense of scale. He also wanted to get closer to Toriyama’s current, slimmer character designs. Toriyama has provided far more design images for this movie than any previous one.”
  • "They've been very conscious of the overseas market during the production and marketing of this film, and want to get it dubbed and shown in theaters overseas as soon as possible to cut down on piracy.”
  • "With that in mind, the rough cut of the film will be used to get dubs finished quickly. At the same time, they're trying to leave plenty of time to do corrections between the rough cut and final cut of the film (a luxury a lot of films these days don't have).”

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#85761: Jul 29th 2018 at 2:54:43 AM

They've really been hyping up the scale of Broly, saying it's a "grand space opera" with a focus on intertwining destiny and all that. I hope it delivers, the most simplistic premise I can think of would basically just be Resurrection 'F' with Broly instead of Freeza, and I hope it turns out to truly be deeper and more epic than that.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Jul 29th 2018 at 2:56:38 AM

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#85762: Jul 29th 2018 at 3:05:58 AM

I really hope that Dragon Ball Room actually churns out something good.

Last time a franchise writers room made something we got Tranformers: The Last Knight.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#85763: Jul 29th 2018 at 4:09:47 AM

"Naruto's cast is definitely bloated, but like in OP you need a large amount of characters to fill the world. I think it's mainly an issue that Konoha has so many characters who appear important but don't get used much, and there are spots here and there where I think Naruto should have spent more time with them. The mixed-team missions would have been good for this, or Kishi's original scope that would have Naruto dealing with ninja from other nations early in the series."

The sand village does get fleshed out a lot so they at least that had going for them.

"I don't think the zombie army was an issue, the reanimated Kage were important historial figures but still minor characters and for the screentime they had they had sufficient character (especially the 2nd Mizukage, he was a treasure)."

I like the second Mizukage as well but his character and abilities should have been folded into Mei, and I think similarly for the other Kage pairs. The Five Kage are actually not very impressive by the point the series is in and with the exception of maybe Onoki are made to look like chumps and I think that's completely unacceptable for characters who are supposed to be really strong. If it had been 2 V 3 they would have had much more time to shine. But the way they are they're repeatedly made to look weaker than their predecessors, creating the dreaded middle-gen sag that afflicts so many shonen.

"The examples given of where to cut characters wouldn't improve things for me, Sai had a nice character arc that would be lost (or clumsily given to someone else) and Sasuke having only one partner for Team Snake/Hawk wouldn't feel appropriate. Having a team that matches the size of Team 7 works better for the parallel and his feelings instead of a private relationship."

Sai has an excuse for a character arc that is itself clumsy. I'd definitely jettison that for more screentime for characters who weren't completely boring. Rock Lee and Neji for instance were basically the third and fourth most powerful out of the 12 kids in the first part but they basically disappear in the second, notably with Rock Lee's character arc basically unresolved. Unlike the humans in Dragonball, where there are reasons why they don't contribute any more, they disappear for the story for no reason and some of them don't even look like they made any gains over those three years.

Sasuke having just Suigetsu would make for an Itachi parallel (him and Kisame), which I feel would be superior to a team parallel, especially since Jugo gets no characterisation and Karin is just pathetic and annoying. As it is Taka basically does nothing anyway - they don't contribute to his major fights with Deidara or Itachi at all, for instance. The only fight they really help with is Killer B, a fight which Killer B still threw out of boredom.

Edited by Sigilbreaker26 on Jul 29th 2018 at 11:13:54 AM

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#85764: Jul 29th 2018 at 6:54:53 AM

No, I'm talking about the story. You wouldn't permanently kill Kuririn there.

And there's no way in hell 18 would allow that.

That is true. I'm kind surprised he was able to convince her to go with the I'll distract him, you take Maron and run plan in the original Buu Saga. Then again, heat of the moment and all that. They literally had no time to argue about it because Buu was right there in their face, and 18 already had Maron in her arms.

One Strip! One Strip!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#85765: Jul 29th 2018 at 7:02:47 AM

Also, filler. It doesn't have to make sense.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#85766: Jul 29th 2018 at 7:05:34 AM

Shit! That was filler!

Typical. I still think it's something Krillin would try.

It does explain the slap in the face that is 18 and Maron immediately getting zapped next.

...Random question for you Saiga (and anyone else who wants to answer):

Any filler you actually like? You know, that you think adds to the story instead of subtracting, or outright contradicting it?

I may have asked this one before, but this thread is so freaking long I can't possibly remember every topic (unless it's my usual ones).

One Strip! One Strip!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#85767: Jul 29th 2018 at 7:40:49 AM

Not off the top of my head. It's been ages since I've seen the anime, though.

I like aspects of the Otherworld Tournament but it still had a lot of the issues that filler does.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#85768: Jul 29th 2018 at 8:20:12 AM

Oh yeah. Other World Tournament was good.

I'm gonna say Goku and Piccolo driving though. I mean, it would have made more sense (and saved them more time and money) to teach Chi-chi how to fly, but seeing Goku and Piccolo try and earn drivers licenses was gold.[lol]

One Strip! One Strip!
Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#85769: Jul 29th 2018 at 8:28:06 AM

Apparently there was a livestream that happened last night that showed off some of the next DLC for Xenoverse 2. As a recap:

Paid DLC 7:

  • Super Baby 2
  • SS Kafla
  • Super Janemba outfit
  • Pilaf Saga Bulma outfit
  • Ultra Instinct Wig
  • 5 Parallel Quests
  • 8 Skills
  • 2 Super Souls

Free DLC 7:

  • Tapion outfit
  • GT Mr. Satan wig
  • SS Kafla wig
  • Tiencha wig
  • 40 new HC figures
  • 20 new posing skills
  • 20 new figure skills
  • 5 new HC fights
  • 100 skill reajustments
  • You can choose your other CAC's from the character select

Also, DLC Pack 8 will come this winter with 2 more characters and a bunch of other stuff.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#85770: Jul 29th 2018 at 12:33:49 PM

Alright, fellow Dragon Ball nerds, I need some help. For some reason, I've decided to try and figure out the conversion ratio between Power Levels and Kilis using math. I know, I'm crazy like that. There is an official scale (1 Kili = 50,000 Power Level), but it says that Goku in the Buu saga is just as strong as Goku on Namek, so it's obviously complete worthless garbage.

There are four data points to work with. The first is Super Saiyan 1 Goku's strength. The second is Yakon's strength. The third is the strength needed to destroy a planet. The fourth is what Dabura's strength is greater than. Based on my own estimations for how strong Buu Saga characters are in terms of Power Levels, that works out kind of like this:

Dabura: 6,000,000,000 > 4,000 Kilis (anime-only, may be discarded)
SS1 Goku: 4,000,000,000 = 3,000 Kilis
Yakon: somewhere between 60-100,000,000 = 800 Kilis
Energy needed to destroy a planet: 50,000 (including the Galick Gun multiplier) >=< 300 Kilis

My first thought was that it was a non-linear exchange ratio, and maybe Babidi doesn't count in base 10. That was about where I stopped. This shit is too hard, which is why I'm asking for help.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#85771: Jul 29th 2018 at 1:58:21 PM

The Galick Gun having a multiplier goes against the Saiyans being surprised by that from the Kamehameha and Makankosappo. I'm assuming you got that figure from applying a multiplier to Goku's Kaio-ken Kamehameha, but that doesn't line up with Freeza being able to block the Kaio-ken x20 Kamehameha. If a multiplier was applied than it'd be stronger than 100% Freeza.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#85772: Jul 29th 2018 at 2:11:20 PM

Uh, no? Vegeta specifically noted that the Kamehameha was the same kind of attack as the Galick Gun: one that could become stronger than its user. Techniques with multipliers are just super rare and special at that point.

I just assume that Kaioken makes the Kamehameha multiplier weaker since it's already a ton of strain on the user.

Also, even if the Kaioken made the Kamehameha not have a multiplier, the Galick Gun would still need some kind of multiplier to equal KKx3 at about 24,000.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Jul 29th 2018 at 2:14:02 AM

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#85773: Jul 29th 2018 at 3:45:53 PM

That's not what Vegeta says at all. He is surprised that the KHH is similar to his attack. We don't learn what that specifically refers to.

We know he can't raise his battle power through attacks. Vegeta equates the multiplier on the KHH and Makankosappo to the ability to raise/hide their battle powers. It's treated like the same thing and he couldn't do it himself before his defeat on Earth.

And there's still the Freeza example showing that his KK 20 Kamehameha could only match 50% Freeza, meaning there is no multiplier.

Goku's x3 being unable to overpower the Galick Gun is conspicuous, but giving the GG a multiplier just contradicts more things. It's less of a stretch to say Goku's power dropped with his injuries/fatigue.

Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#85774: Jul 29th 2018 at 4:43:35 PM

I feel dirty for saying this but I'm with PMC on this one. Goku had a battle power of about 8,000 during his fight with Vegeta while Geet's had a BP of 18,000. Goku fired off his Kamehameha under the effects of the Kaiouken x3 which raises his BP to 24k. This is higher than Vegeta's 18k yet the beams were evenly matched. This is also ignoring that the Kamehameha actually had a BP higher than Goku's. If Vegeta's Galick Gun didn't have a higher BP that Geet's, Goku's KKx3 KHH should have overpowered Geet's GG. This also matches up with what we see later with things like the Final Flash and probably other attacks I'm forgetting. Vegeta is really good at making beams that are significantly stronger than he is. It's not impossible that the Galick Gun was an outlier.

For the record, this means that the minimum BP needed to destroy a planet is at least 24k, not 18k as we often say.

[up] It's not impossible but that just seems less likely to me.

Edited by Zelenal on Jul 29th 2018 at 6:46:04 AM

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#85775: Jul 29th 2018 at 4:51:10 PM

The Galick Gun absolutely had a multiplier. Goku hadn't taken anywhere near that much damage by that point in the fight, not to mention how often the Galick Gun is shown in other media and later in the series as an attack capable of putting out more power than the user has.

20 times is a huge level of Kaioken, and Freeza still had half of his power to use. It could've been a mere 1.25x multiplier at that point, and Freeza withstanding it with just a burnt hand would've still been well within the realm of possibility.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Jul 29th 2018 at 4:50:59 AM


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