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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#85726: Jul 28th 2018 at 12:59:41 PM

Fair enough.

Still, you could argue DB didn't really get a main cast until post Saiyan Saga, considering how Toriyama often didn't make much use of certain characters.

As I said, outside of Bulma, who still only had a minor role during the Red Ribbon and then Namek arcs (which ended very quickly), there weren't really any main characters beyond Goku until we got Vegeta, Piccolo Jr. and Gohan.

Everyone else tended to fall by the way side, or only be used for as long as they were useful to the plot, which wasn't very long.

One Strip! One Strip!
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#85727: Jul 28th 2018 at 1:07:40 PM

That's what LSBK was referring to though; there are characters who serve a purpose and add to the story, even if they're not the primary ones the series focuses on.

And I really disagree with your statement; Goku, Bulma, Yamcha, Oolong, and Puar are pretty clearly the main characters of the first arc, and other characters that play major roles like Krillin and Tien are added later. The fact that with the exception of Goku, they lose their main character status eventually doesn't change that they were main characters at one point.

They contributed what they needed and Toriyama moved on from them when he had no further use for them and wanted to introduce new characters. Lots of authors do this and there's nothing wrong with it either unless you just happen to be a fan of those characters. In which case, tough shit.

Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Jul 28th 2018 at 4:11:29 AM

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#85728: Jul 28th 2018 at 1:08:38 PM

I'm not saying absolutely every character has to be plot relevant. But a character's screentime usually correlates a lot with how developed they get, and often instead of introducing a new character to do something is usually not as good as having an already existing character grow by doing it.

For instance, Kishi introduced Yamato and Sai in Shippuden, to temporarily replace Kakashi and Sasuke while the former was indisposed and the latter was... elsewhere. But instead of coming up with Sai, if he instead had one of the 11 be Danzo's mole he would be

  1. . developing a character that already existed instead of introducing a new flat one
  2. . showing how things had changed since Naruto left the village

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#85729: Jul 28th 2018 at 1:14:28 PM

That runs the risk of it being a Deus ex Machina though; it's a lot easier to believe a new character might have other allegiances besides the main character, than the supporting cast we've been stuck with and watched them grow with the main character since the beginning.

Like, it would be extremely hard to sell any of the Konoha 11 working for Danzo because you would need to introduce an element about their character that was never hinted at before. With Sai, being a new character means it's a lot easier to sell because you have a clean slate to work with.

Most of the Konoha 11 had already realized character arcs; they did what they had to do, so there wasn't any real reason to continue focusing on them.

Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Jul 28th 2018 at 4:14:04 AM

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#85730: Jul 28th 2018 at 1:14:47 PM

I mean, that's just an issue of using characters who were made out to seem like they were going to be more important poorly, not an issue of secondary characters being secondary.

Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#85731: Jul 28th 2018 at 1:18:23 PM

Toriyama has always just kinda done his own thing.

Toriyama seems to be pretty easily influenced by the people he knows. He changed the main antagonist of Androids saga like 3 times because one of his friends didn't like them.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#85732: Jul 28th 2018 at 1:20:47 PM

And that's just it, expectations. Fans grow attached to certain characters and assume they'll have bigger roles and get disappointed when they're tossed aside.

Its like, there's a difference between someone like Gohan being tossed aside (Someone who was very blatantly setup to succeed the main character) and someone like Tien or Yamcha being tossed aside (Rivals who existed to give Goku a challenge and were quickly surpassed for more powerful rivals).

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#85733: Jul 28th 2018 at 1:20:50 PM

That friend was an ex-editor though. Admittedly someone who didn't have any more power over him, but he already had existing influence over the work so it's not hard to see why his opinion would matter to Toriyama.

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#85734: Jul 28th 2018 at 1:24:49 PM

"Most of the Konoha 11 had already realized character arcs; they did what they had to do, so there wasn't any real reason to continue focusing on them."

Really? They did? Neji did have a character arc, started and completed in the first part, and Shikamaru had one and maybe a few others like Choji. But are you going to tell me that they all did? Kiba? Shino? Tenten? Even major ones in Part 1 like Rock Lee are basically irrelevant.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#85735: Jul 28th 2018 at 1:25:14 PM

Arguably, very easily arguably, Krillin, Gohan and Vegeta were the main characters of Namek and Goku is just this weird long foreshadowed deus ex machina that shows up to save the main characters from jams

I don't even know if Goku is a main character in the Androids Cell saga because of how much time he is sidelined. Again he's kind of a foreshadowed but subverted plot resolution guy

Goku is often the main focus of stuff but he's constantly being shoved to the side to save him for climactic fights while other characters do the character work

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#85736: Jul 28th 2018 at 1:28:38 PM

[up][up] That's why I said "Most of" and not "All". And this goes back to what I was saying before, does every supporting character need some type of major focus? Some characters stay tertiary and never get focus, it happens in a LOT of stories.

Like it was said, sometimes character just exist. They're not important characters nor is their lack of involvement detrimental to the story. There are supporting characters who do get focus, but that doesn't mean all of them need to. And it's not a major issue if they don't.

Like, of all of the complaints about Naruto, I'm pretty sure "Tenten doesn't get focus" won't be one of the ones you read a lot.

Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Jul 28th 2018 at 4:31:59 AM

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#85737: Jul 28th 2018 at 1:40:51 PM

On the contrary, the sidelining of the other three teams, maybe with the exception of Shikamaru's team since they get the Kakazu/Hidan arc, is a very very common complaint I see. Another example is the introduction of the Hebi/Taka, which introduced three fairly flat characters who didn't do anything relevant, whereas if it had been just one that person's character and relationship with Sasuke could have been fleshed out much better.

The biggest example of all is in the war arc where not only do the three nations we haven't seen up till then much get introduced simultaneously, including three never before seen Kage, but the necromancy plot necessitated the introduction of multiple Kage we hadn't seen before either, resulting in a lot of cramming together and almost all of the new characters have maybe one character trait between them all if they're lucky (although a few like Killer B and Onoki got a bit more development).

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#85738: Jul 28th 2018 at 1:44:41 PM

It's extremely hard to sell a war arc without a majority of characters to ya know...have war.

Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Jul 28th 2018 at 4:44:18 AM

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#85739: Jul 28th 2018 at 1:54:44 PM

Having it take place between all the nations on one side and Kabuto and Tobi on the other was dumb for a multitude of reasons, but character bloat is a strong negative from that decision. Had it been Leaf + Sand V everyone else, then you'd only have to introduce half the characters they eventually had to use, since they wouldn't have to dig up all the dead kage for the villains to stand a chance.

Edited by Sigilbreaker26 on Jul 28th 2018 at 8:54:47 AM

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#85740: Jul 28th 2018 at 2:17:06 PM

Are you saying that the other nations should have sided with Tobi and Kabuto?

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#85741: Jul 28th 2018 at 2:38:41 PM

And I really disagree with your statement; Goku, Bulma, Yamcha, Oolong, and Puar are pretty clearly the main characters of the first arc, and other characters that play major roles like Krillin and Tien are added later. The fact that with the exception of Goku, they lose their main character status eventually doesn't change that they were main characters at one point.

Ok, that's true enough. They are very much the mains of that arc. And Bulma and Yamcha's respective arcs are completed when they get together.

They contributed what they needed and Toriyama moved on from them when he had no further use for them and wanted to introduce new characters. Lots of authors do this and there's nothing wrong with it either

This is true.

unless you just happen to be a fan of those characters. In which case, tough shit.

....this is also true.sad

I mean, was there nothing else for Tien and Yamcha to contribute to the plot? Could Chiaotzu have had a purpose beyond doing nothing and dying?

Most would say no, they didn't. Some would say yes they did, and it's just a matter of the author trying to think of said role. I mean, I don't think anyone thought the Pilaf Gang wouldn't be showing up again, and yet here they are, though it's mostly Mai who's there to set up her relationship with Future Trunks. Pilaf and Shuu are pretty superfluous, but they are the Pilaf Gang, not Mai's solo show, so the other two come along.

And Mr. Satan is probably the second most important human after Bulma, since his uncanny ability to bullshit his way out of any situation without having to throw a punch (since said punch would do nothing) is both frustrating, but also pretty useful when his reputation (which he did legitimately earn until the Cell Saga). has saved the day quite a few times.

...I'm just repeating myself again. Shit, I gotta stop doing that.

Um...meh fuck it. I'm dropping this for now.

Until the next time I make the same damn mistake over again, Rob out!

One Strip! One Strip!
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#85742: Jul 28th 2018 at 3:08:02 PM

[up][up] I'm saying Tobi should not have declared war on all of them and forced them into an alliance. Because that's what he does. They were at each other's throats until he made his entrance and it's hugely counter to his own interests. He'd have been better off trying to subtly spark and war and then using the chaos to abduct Naruto and Bee than actively declaring his intentions and uniting his most serious enemies, especially when the only ally in his court has Chronic Backstabbing Disorder.

[up]I'll give this to Mr. Satan - while the Buu arc was derailing loads of characters, Mr. Satan somehow went from a pro wrestling punchline to avatar of basic human decency. He's easily my favourite part of the arc and Piccolo's description of him as having truly earnt the title Champion of Earth is actually a really great moment.

Edited by Sigilbreaker26 on Jul 28th 2018 at 10:09:59 AM

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#85743: Jul 28th 2018 at 5:12:48 PM

I don't think OP's main cast is bloated, because the Straw Hats are small. Oda's just bad at managing even a small cast. There are lots of secondary/tertiary characters but they all feel pretty appropriate. He's good at handling a world, and it sometimes makes me think that Luffy should have been a solo hero.

Naruto's cast is definitely bloated, but like in OP you need a large amount of characters to fill the world. I think it's mainly an issue that Konoha has so many characters who appear important but don't get used much, and there are spots here and there where I think Naruto should have spent more time with them. The mixed-team missions would have been good for this, or Kishi's original scope that would have Naruto dealing with ninja from other nations early in the series.

I don't think the zombie army was an issue, the reanimated Kage were important historial figures but still minor characters and for the screentime they had they had sufficient character (especially the 2nd Mizukage, he was a treasure). The examples given of where to cut characters wouldn't improve things for me, Sai had a nice character arc that would be lost (or clumsily given to someone else) and Sasuke having only one partner for Team Snake/Hawk wouldn't feel appropriate. Having a team that matches the size of Team 7 works better for the parallel and his feelings instead of a private relationship.

As for Toriyama, I think he was pretty good with his character usage in the manga. The biggest issue is how thing went with Gohan but that's more an issue of backpeddling on something he'd already implemented and not coming up with an adequate resolution to his character as a result.

With Super's writing, though, his character usage isn't as logical. We've had the anime staff tell us that Toriyama has included characters with no explanation as to why they are included, and in-universe justifications for excluding characters have been incredibly poor. It feels like there is a lot of nostalgia in the character choices, instead of them feeling like an organic development of the cast.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#85744: Jul 28th 2018 at 5:37:36 PM

It's really odd too.

Toriyama didn't strike me as a Nostalgia person.

Then again, he does strike me more as wanting to write who he likes no matter what, so maybe if an old character is who he likes, it makes sense to him to bring them back.

Then again, I think he said he didn't like Vegeta, and Vegeta's arc spans the entirety of the latter part of the story...and now that I think about it, he created Frieza because Vegeta got popular, so maybe my previous statement about not caring about popularity was wrong, and he is willing to run with a character if people like them.

One Strip! One Strip!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#85745: Jul 28th 2018 at 5:46:04 PM

At the same time he said he didn't like Vegeta much, he also said he was very helpful for the story. So that's why he would have kept Vegeta around.

I mean, was there nothing else for Tien and Yamcha to contribute to the plot? Could Chiaotzu have had a purpose beyond doing nothing and dying?

Most would say no, they didn't. Some would say yes they did, and it's just a matter of the author trying to think of said role

I would say both hypothetical sides to this are wrong. Yes, those three could have had a higher purpose or more to contribute to the plot. No, it's not a matter of an author trying to think of that role. It's a matter of whether they should think of that. And there I think the answer is 'No'.

Given an expanded role to those three would mean one of two things - a) they're just taking the place from someone else or b) you're adding more to the story.

If they take the place of someone else, who would it be? Most of the other characters present are much more important than them, and more logical to be involved over them. That doesn't fix anything. That just upsets a different group of people.

If you add more to the story, you're expanding what is already a notoriously lengthy series. Each arc is quite long, and has a lot going on. There really aren't moments where you need to add more characters in.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#85746: Jul 28th 2018 at 6:05:14 PM

Fair enough. I suppose I was asking the wrong questions and thinking of it the wrong way.

Though you could ask what makes Krillin more important to the plot than those guys? I love Krillin, but was he the only one who could have served the role he did?

On the one hand, he is Goku's closest friend, so him dying on Namek was vital to pushing Goku to become a Super Saiyan (though not the only thing).

On the other hand, does that mean that, if Tien or Yamcha had been in his place, Goku wouldn't have had the same reaction of TREACHEROUS FRIEZA!! YOU DONE FUCKED UP NOW!!!!

Probably not.

You could say that Krillin needed to have his fight with both Roshi and Goku at their respective points in the Budokai, but then again, he could have easily fought Krillin in the earlier round in the 21st, and ...well, no matter who Goku fought at the 22nd, the result was always going to be the same.

In fact, you could argue that having it be Yamcha fighting him and grabbing his tail would have finally seen the payoff of Yamcha wanting to capitalize on the weakness years ago and never getting the proper chance...

Oh wait. Ooozaru. Never mind. Still, as one of the people who first knew about it, and first used it to his advantage, it would have been a nice Call-Back. Especially with his reaction when it doesn't work.

Also, while Krillin pulled some nice tricks on Namek, how would either of those two have faired in his place? Hell, really surprise us and have maybe Chiaotzu survive and go to Namek. He needs a bit of development, and imagine how boned a trio of Bulma, Gohan, and Chiaotzu would have constantly been.

One Strip! One Strip!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#85747: Jul 28th 2018 at 6:08:52 PM

But the biggest question - is there any particular reason not to use Kuririn there?

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#85748: Jul 28th 2018 at 6:14:32 PM

No. No there is not.

He did work well in that role.

Meh, as I've said before I'm ultimately one of those fans who just wished those characters had had some slightly better showings.

Not that Krillin did all that well beyond surviving, but then again, surviving some of the shit he did was a massive accomplishment too. Lets be honest...he probably should have died way more than 3 times...four if you count GT.

One Strip! One Strip!
galleyfox Since: Feb, 2018
#85749: Jul 28th 2018 at 6:19:30 PM

[up][up] This point I absolutely agree with. Character usage in Super seems to be based on who Toriyama wants to doodle at the moment as opposed who needs to fulfill the actual plot points. Also, introducing lots of new characters is a classic way for artists to fill panel or screen time without having to develop more intricate plots.

In the manga, Toriyama seemed to have a stronger sense of what he wanted a character to achieve in the long run, so the DBZ portion managed with a much more efficient cast than Super.

Retiring a character is fine; those can be the some of the finest moments in a series, but Toriyama absolutely struggles with this even in the original manga. There are several moments where he could have culled the cast and made a fine poignant moment of it. Give Launch a "Farewell, I'm moving on with my life" scene instead of just forgetting her. Yamucha, Tien, Chiaotzu and Krillin's deaths were all executed very well (...though maybe not Yamucha's so much). The plot could have left everyone dead at the end of Namek simply by not reanimating the Namek Dragonballs and finished the arc on a bittersweet note.

One other thing that aggravates me about Super are the circular character arcs. Vegeta, Krillin and especially Gohan are constantly being regressed just to return them to the status quo.

Unless regression leads to significant character development, it should really be avoided for the most part. (Zuko in Avatar, for example, had a very necessary regression arc, because he needed to resolve his issues with his Father.)

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#85750: Jul 28th 2018 at 6:25:46 PM

Eh, Lunch was never that important. I don't mind the way she was written out of the series - she's absent for the Saiyan arc reunion and Kuririn mentions that she went chasing after Tenshinhan. That's fine for me, because Tenshinhan himself rarely shows up.

I think Kuririn and Yamcha coming back after Namek was fine, it's just Ten and Chaozu that weren't needed. If the Namekian balls didn't have the ability to restore people to life more than once (and Gohan was killed in place of Kuririn) than we'd have Chaozu unable to be revived, and Ten choosing to stay dead so they can stick together and train in the afterlife. I think that'd be a nice bit of closure for them.

The Boo arc would have to be re-written to avoid all the extra deaths there, though. Stuff like 18 tossing Kuririn off the look-out (like Popo and Dende) when Boo attacks, etc.


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