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Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#85701: Jul 26th 2018 at 3:38:57 PM

Broly is married to Princess Trunks, you cad

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#85702: Jul 26th 2018 at 3:40:29 PM

[up][up][up] not in that context

[up][up] he's meme in japan, and recent interviews have said he's popular in Japan as well as the west. It's why the idea was pitcged to Toriyama.

Edited by Saiga on Jul 26th 2018 at 8:40:33 PM

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#85703: Jul 26th 2018 at 3:47:15 PM

A non-official popularity poll on another site had Bardock as #1, and Broly at #4. They are undoubtedly popular and is a large reason they get shilled so much.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#85704: Jul 26th 2018 at 3:50:34 PM

Wasn't Toriyama's statement on Broly basically "People like him but I didn't really remember him so I looked at his movies. I thought he sucked, but that I could make him better" or something like that?

Edited by LSBK on Jul 26th 2018 at 5:50:14 AM

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#85705: Jul 26th 2018 at 3:56:09 PM

He didn't say anything negative, just that there was potential for something interesting if he changed things around.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#85706: Jul 26th 2018 at 3:58:56 PM

[up][up]

Pretty much.

That being said, Bardock only made it into that panel in the manga because Toriyama liked the special (and eventually, he made Minus).

And Broly is only getting his new movie and status quo because Toriyama thought there was something to work with.

So for the former, him being acknowledge was because the author liked him (separate from his popularity) and for the latter, he didn't even know he existed until he was told about him (despite drawing him) and only decided to take a shot because he felt he could do it better.

So I'd say what Toriyama does isn't shaped by how popular a character is in the fandom...but I'm biased because I want more emphasis on female fighters, want Yamcha to be given some respect, and wish Launch would return (yeah, she's irrelevant, but so are Puar, Oolong, Chiaotzu, etc, and they still show up), so everything I say should be taken with 2400 grains of salt.

Any other well liked characters who don't get the time of day...or am I to believe fans in Japan were waiting for the return of the Pilaf Gang?

Edited by HandsomeRob on Jul 26th 2018 at 5:01:03 AM

One Strip! One Strip!
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#85707: Jul 26th 2018 at 5:55:23 PM

I think Broly is in general well liked or accepted quality of his movies aside, it’s just you hear more about his super-fans or super-haters cause they are extremely vocal in their feelings on the matter.

It’s what happened when something gets really popular.

Edited by slimcoder on Jul 26th 2018 at 5:58:05 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#85708: Jul 26th 2018 at 6:04:28 PM

[up]

True dat. True dat...

Does anyone say True dat anymore? I suddenly feel really old.

I blame all of you.

One Strip! One Strip!
MightyMatilda Mr. Clueless from New Jersey, USA Since: Jan, 2015
Mr. Clueless
#85709: Jul 26th 2018 at 6:05:29 PM

@Saiga: "He didn't say anything negative, just that there was potential for something interesting if he changed things around."

Though it is tempting to think of that as a PR-friendly way of saying that Broly sucks.

De Romanīs, lingua Latina gloriosa non fuī.
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#85710: Jul 26th 2018 at 6:21:16 PM

You know, people say that SSB didn't really get a chance to shine, but it's the most used transformation in Super by a landslide, and no transformation in Z really matches it in terms of consistency. Think about it, SS1 only showed up at the end of the Freeza saga, and was the go-to in the Cell Saga until the Grades came along. The Buu Saga almost completely neglected SS1 and the Grades, focusing on SS2 for a short while before throwing that aside for SS3, which in turn got only Goku and Gotenks worth of screentime.

To put it another way:

In Super, after Battle of Gods, SSB is the go-to serious battle form for 'F', the U6 tournament, Future Trunks, the Universal Survival Saga, and it looks like it'll be the main combat form in Broly, too. SSB KK is still a variation of SSB, and is saved for quick moments of awesome until Jiren, which is when it starts to be used more often.

In Z, SS1 is the climax of Freeza, gets half of the screentime in Cell, and is almost completely gone by Buu, except for a brief moment to shine with Vegetto. SS2 is the climax of Cell and gets focus for the first third or so of Buu. SS3 gets focus for like the last two-thirds of Buu, but the focus is broken up by Ultimate Gohan and Vegetto.

I'd be very curious to see a full, comprehensive breakdown of how much screentime each individual form gets. If we're including the Grades as SS1 and SSB KK is separate from SSB, then I think SS1 wins. If we don't count the Grades as SS1 (and I think there's a completely separate conversation to be had about whether Grade 4 is the same as SS1) and SSB KK is still SSB than Super Saiyan Blue might honestly have the most screentime of any form in the franchise.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#85711: Jul 26th 2018 at 7:23:52 PM

Super Saiyan 1 got way more screentime than that. Gohan, Goten, Trunks and Vegeta use it prior to the tournament, and it sets up the whole Golden Fighter thing.

Gohan uses it against Dabra (probably, thats a whole 'nother debate), Vegeta uses it as Majin until he and Goku both go 2.

Gotenks uses it for half his fight with Boo, and it's the form Goku and Vegeta turn into inside Boo's body up to the battle with Pure Boo.

Also, screentime is generally not the issue people have with Blue. Underwhelming and bizarre usage is generally the issue.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#85712: Jul 26th 2018 at 7:39:58 PM

Super Saiyan 1 got way more screentime than that. Gohan, Goten, Trunks and Vegeta use it prior to the tournament, and it sets up the whole Golden Fighter thing.

Those scenes are fairly short and sparse. Gohan's is just the one time as the Golden Fighter, then him training Goten. Goten's is just him training with Gohan. Vegeta and Trunks just get the one scene training together.

Gohan uses it against Dabra (probably, thats a whole 'nother debate), Vegeta uses it as Majin until he and Goku both go 2.

I think he used 2, but as you said, that's a different debate (short version, I don't think that SS1 Gohan could've fought someone "as strong as Cell" even if they weren't referring to Super Perfect Cell). Vegeta does use it up until his actual fight with Goku, but that's mostly just him grandstanding in the arena and not fighting, though my point is just about screentime, so I guess that's moot.

Gotenks uses it for half his fight with Boo, and it's the form Goku and Vegeta turn into inside Boo's body up to the battle with Pure Boo.

I actually forgot just how much of Gotenks' fight was in SS1. I can't remember whether Goku and Vegeta go back to base between Kid Buu blowing up Earth and fighting him or not, but yeah, they do hang around in the form for a bit.

Also, screentime is generally not the issue people have with Blue. Underwhelming and bizarre usage is generally the issue.

Yeah, but screentime is a facet of it, and it's the one I want to focus on, mostly just out of curiosity at this point.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Jul 26th 2018 at 7:40:44 AM

agent-trunks IHE from Every-where, but there Since: Apr, 2015
IHE
#85713: Jul 26th 2018 at 11:12:43 PM

So as long the new Broly movie piss people off, it'll do just fine.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#85714: Jul 28th 2018 at 1:19:22 AM

Okay, I've never heard anyone else mention this, so it might just be a me thing, but there's something about the way that the character's bodies are drawn in the Buu saga that just looks wrong to me. It's most noticeable in the Goku vs Majin Vegeta fight, and it's hard to describe what exactly it is.

Their bodies just look very wide and very flat, like there's a uniform depth of their bodies that is the exact same going from their chest all the way to their legs. There's just not enough muscle depth or fat and their spines don't seem to align in the S-curve right. It's something that's always bothered me, but I never saw anyone else ever mention it, so I figured I was the crazy one.

Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#85715: Jul 28th 2018 at 3:30:44 AM

Is he that popular in Japan?

There was a link a while back where Toriyama explained the origin of the movie - basically his editor came to him and said "This Broly guy is really popular, I think we should milk him some more!", and the rest is history.

Edited by Shlugo_the_great on Jul 28th 2018 at 12:33:20 PM

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#85716: Jul 28th 2018 at 8:03:11 AM

That's really weird though.

Toriyama has always just kinda done his own thing. I mean, if it was about convincing him to capitalize on popular characters, then you'd think there be a push to have him do something about people in the main cast beyond Goku.

Now I wonder, beyond Krillin, Goku, Vegeta, Frieza, and I guess Bulma, how popular are other people in the franchise?

I want to know if people in Japan actually want Launch to re-appear.

One Strip! One Strip!
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#85717: Jul 28th 2018 at 8:43:22 AM

Maybe they DO, don't question it.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#85718: Jul 28th 2018 at 9:04:12 AM

Toriyama has always just kinda done his own thing. I mean, if it was about convincing him to capitalize on popular characters, then you'd think there be a push to have him do something about people in the main cast beyond Goku.

How do you think the Tournament of Power came about? Obviously people have been shouting "Use your extended cast already!" and Toriyama went "Okay okay, fine, geeze".

Or maybe that's not how it happened, but it's funny to think about.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#85719: Jul 28th 2018 at 10:00:09 AM

Maybe, but he I doubt that ever phased him before.

How do you guys rate his ability to use his cast?

One Strip! One Strip!
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#85720: Jul 28th 2018 at 10:59:28 AM

Middle of the road. His cast isn't always well used but it isn't completely bloated like many shonen shows. Stuff like Piccolo being moved from combatant to mentor in the Buu Saga shows that he has some adaptability and he's not afraid to basically retire characters outright (though he let a few of the humans stay on during the Cell Saga when they should have retired).

His use of characters is at its best in the early arcs I think, especially the tournaments. Look at the 22nd or 23rd Budokai and see how he manages to balance so many characters. By the 23rd there's only really one filler match (Chi-Chi) and even that one ended up being massively plot relevant.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#85721: Jul 28th 2018 at 12:15:43 PM

Bleach is the only Shonen that I would say has a really "bloated" cast.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#85722: Jul 28th 2018 at 12:17:56 PM

Kubo really should have found a different way to deal with his writer’s block.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#85723: Jul 28th 2018 at 12:47:39 PM

Bleach definitely has it the outright worst by some distance, but I'd also throw in Naruto (for not using most of the Konoha 11 well after the time skip and for needlessly making the war introduce twice as many characters as needed), I think MHA has maybe five too many characters in the main class and multiple "main" characters have basically had nothing to do, and One Piece often really struggles to find things for some of the crew to do after its time skip.

The only shonen series which I'd argue never puts a step wrong in that regard is YYH. I hold it as the best example of having a strong well-used cast in Shonen.

Edited by Sigilbreaker26 on Jul 28th 2018 at 7:47:59 PM

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#85724: Jul 28th 2018 at 12:54:26 PM

Well, how often do you expect to see supporting characters in the spotlight? They're "support" for a reason. Too much focus on them and well...you end up with Bleach with the focus all over the damn place.

And yes, I understand not enough focus makes them feel "useless", but I don't agree with that and I've never subscribed that a series must give it's supporting cast a lot of screentime.

Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Jul 28th 2018 at 3:55:00 PM

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#85725: Jul 28th 2018 at 12:59:30 PM

Yeah, if a story is only made of "essential" characters, it tends to be pretty shitty.

Some inessential ones are necessary (sounds a bit paradoxical, I know), but note I'm saying inessential and not useless. As long as a character's existence isn't an active detriment to the narrative or enjoyment of the work, I don't get complaining about them existing, even if they don't do a lot.

Edited by LSBK on Jul 28th 2018 at 2:59:55 PM


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