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Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#85676: Jul 24th 2018 at 9:53:55 PM

The issue with Ten's feats is that they establish no baseline for him. You can't say 'a person with 10k bp can't do this' or 'you must be X power level to do these' without introducing a large amount of conjecture.

I wouldn't think a person weaker than base Vegeta could stagger Semi Perfect Cell, but it happened.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#85677: Jul 24th 2018 at 10:05:24 PM

Buu has an odd gimmick where he tends to use exactly the amount of power he needs to overpower his opponent, but no more. He tends to hold back a ton regardless of who he's fighting because he likes playing with them, and a completely one-sided curbstomp isn't fun. Fat Buu tends to do it out of a genuine sense of playfulness and joy in fighting strong guys. He holds back to let Vegeta get hits in, he holds back while fighting SS3 Goku, and he holds back to have fun with base Gotenks.

This continues as Super Buu, though he tends to play around less and less the smarter he gets from absorbing people. Super Buu also seems to hold back more to mess with his opponents, though he certainly still enjoys a good challenge. He holds back while killing everyone on Earth, Tenshinhan and Chiaotzu are able to dodge the individual blasts. He holds back to play with SS1 Gotenks and he holds back to play with Gohan a little once he absorbs Gotenks.

This even follows into Kid Buu, who seems to hold back partially out of a sense of fun but mostly out of pure sadism at this point. Kid Buu tries to destroy Earth with a very small ball until it's intercepted, at which point he makes a super huge ball that won't be stopped. Kid Buu also holds back to play with Vegeta, though more brutally than Fat Buu did.

Even the modern Buu we know has a habit of holding back and toying with his opponents, as shown in his fight with Basil.

My point is that I'm sure that Buutenks' blast intended to kill Dende was probably only just strong enough to kill Dende, and not much more. Buu likes to do the bare minimum, not out of laziness, but more out of a sense of play and a desire to have fun fighting people.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Jul 24th 2018 at 10:06:07 AM

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#85678: Jul 24th 2018 at 10:08:40 PM

I think with the human extinction attack and the blast to kill dende, it's a case of 'they're this weak, so i need to use this much to kill them'. He doesn't really have a reason to use a blast many times stronger than that.

Jedi1113 Since: Jun, 2009
#85679: Jul 24th 2018 at 10:21:27 PM

@Rob Vegeta-Claymore

Krillin-Nunchaku

Tien-Shaolin Spade

Piccolo-Kusarigama

Gohan-Tonfa

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#85680: Jul 25th 2018 at 3:55:30 AM

I actually did note that that feat is useless for determining actual power because it's aimed and Dende and Mr. Satan. I wasn't using it to determine power, I was using it to determine speed. But I was ignored, it looks like.

"Tien sees, responds to and intercepts an attack from goddamn Super Buu, something which is not super helpful for determining power but is still a phenomenal speed feat,"

Attacks, even minor ones tend to be pretty consistently fast as the person firing them.

And being able to react to and intercept a minor attack from Buutenks (or was it Buucilo? can't remember when they defused) is a fantastic speed feat.

Edited by Sigilbreaker26 on Jul 25th 2018 at 10:56:34 AM

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#85681: Jul 25th 2018 at 5:23:31 AM

Alright so I figured just to hopefully lighten the mood what with the pretty brutal arguing recently about a returning topic why don't we all band together & talk/discuss/complain/critique/whatever on another returning topic that I think we can all agree needs general improvement. tongue

So to start I have not seen the Boruto anime, only the first ep & that's when it appeared like a year ago cause I am a lazy fuck but I heard all the hype about Momoshiki climax fight & figured "Why the Hell not, on to You Tube" & damn to say it lightly that was a pretty good fight.

Like whenever I say this franchise needs better fight choreography that shit right there is what I'm talking about, some actual kick-ass Kung-Fu badassery. Well Wing Chun to be more specific in what martial arts was used.

Seriously why can't we get good martial arts fights in a franchise where the main characters well a good deal of them pride themselves on being Martial Artists?

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#85682: Jul 25th 2018 at 6:08:24 AM

[up][up] No it isn't. It's overthinking things.

We've got other examples of characters reacting to the speed of ki blasts of people way stronger than them (base Goku to SS 1 Vegeta, Kaioshin to Fat Boo) and there's nothing to support your claim of casual ki blasts being as fast as the people firing them.

It doesn't mean anything unless the user is actually being serious.

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#85683: Jul 25th 2018 at 7:06:55 AM

"We've got other examples of characters reacting to the speed of ki blasts of people way stronger than them (base Goku to SS 1 Vegeta, Kaioshin to Fat Boo)"

Out of interest when are the instances you mention?

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#85684: Jul 25th 2018 at 8:46:26 AM

Base Goku crosses his arms to block an energy blast that SS 1 Majin Vegeta launches at him, and Kaioshin uses his shockwave to destroy the blast that sent Gohan flying.

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#85685: Jul 25th 2018 at 9:46:49 AM

I'll need to have a look at those.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#85686: Jul 26th 2018 at 7:35:22 AM

On a different note, I've also noticed that you could make a solid argument for Krillin being stronger than Tien during the 23rd TB. He gives Piccolo more trouble than Tien gave Goku, I'd argue.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#85687: Jul 26th 2018 at 8:22:35 AM

Both of them were holding back though...

The only thing you can say about that is Piccoro is was holding back more...

Which wouldn't be surprising...

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#85688: Jul 26th 2018 at 1:51:10 PM

[up][up] I had thought that in the past, however he didn't make Piccolo drop his weights, he was scared of Tao Pai Pai and amazed when Ten beat him.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#85689: Jul 26th 2018 at 1:51:21 PM

Yea, saying Krillin did "good" against Piccolo is really stretching it because it was rather obvious Piccolo wasn't trying, hence why he was caught off guard. Once Piccolo got started to get serious, Krillin immediately gave up because he knew he didn't stand a chance.

Tien was definitely stronger than Krillin before Namek, and he was the strongest character just behind Goku and Piccolo in the 23rd Tenkaichi. You could make a good argument that Tien was even with Goku before the latter took off his weighted clothing while as [up] said, Krillin couldn't make Piccolo do the same.

Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Jul 26th 2018 at 4:51:41 AM

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#85690: Jul 26th 2018 at 1:55:54 PM

That's how I interpreted it.

Tien was the strongest human until Namek came along, and Krillin received a boost that couldn't be matched before training.

This is also supported by his more impressive showing against Goku in the 22 Budokai, fighting evenly with a Goku who'd wiped out the entire Red Ribbon Army three years earlier.

But times changed.

One Strip! One Strip!
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#85691: Jul 26th 2018 at 2:04:25 PM

Though that video that said Krillin is stronger mainly because of popularity power would make a lot of sense in explaining the little disparity between Krillin and Tien.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#85692: Jul 26th 2018 at 2:11:15 PM

I don't think Toriyama would do that, that just sounds typical fan speculation.

I think Toriyama just had more interest in using him.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#85693: Jul 26th 2018 at 2:13:10 PM

I mean, that's kind of a similar thing isn't it? He has more of an attachment to Krillin (and the audience did too) so he makes Krillin stronger than Tien because why the fuck not.

We got a similar thing going on with Gohan right now, Toriyama lost interest in him so he's just fallen by the wayside and nerfed.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#85694: Jul 26th 2018 at 2:16:36 PM

They're pretty much opposites. Doing what the author wants vs doing what the audience wants.

That kind of speculation is often used to decry popularity-driven monents, such as claiming that the author wouldn't do that if not for the fans etc

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#85695: Jul 26th 2018 at 2:36:51 PM

Yet, he brought back Freeza and Broly because of their popularity. So are you absolutely sure there isn't some overlap between the two?

Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Jul 26th 2018 at 5:36:27 AM

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#85696: Jul 26th 2018 at 3:22:32 PM

Were Piccolo's clothes weighted in the 23rd TB? I thought he only started weighting them when the Saiyan Arc started.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#85697: Jul 26th 2018 at 3:27:31 PM

I don't think Toriyama would do that, that just sounds typical fan speculation.

I think Toriyama just had more interest in using him.

Yeah. If there's one thing I've learned about Toriyama, it's that he pretty much does what he wants.

It's only during the Android / Cell Saga that he let anyone influence what he did, with the constant super villain shuffle that the arc was.

I mean, he brought back Frieza because he seems to like Frieza. Broly coming back is that he decided to take a look at the character for himself and felt there was something to work with.

If he did anything because fans liked the character, then a lot of character we like here would be getting more love...though I can only speak for Western Audiences. Do we know if any popular characters in Japan (barring Krillin and Frieza) have gotten a big push because of fan demand?

One Strip! One Strip!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#85699: Jul 26th 2018 at 3:34:02 PM

Rob did mention Broly.

I know Bardock getting shoved into everything and wanked till the skin came off is popularity based but that's not specifically Toriyama (though IIRC he gets a mention in the manga because Tori liked the special).

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#85700: Jul 26th 2018 at 3:34:15 PM

Is he that popular in Japan?

I mean, considering all the vitriol he gets here, I'm not sure.

It's true he got three movies, and now he's getting a fourth that lets him cross in canon, but is this actual popularity—the fans want to see him—or is this just that strange thing where execs are convinced people want a character and put him everywhere, but people are actually sick of him?

And beside, FUCK BROLY!tongue

Not literally of course.

One Strip! One Strip!

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