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LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#85651: Jul 24th 2018 at 5:13:14 PM

Although in Super, I feel like we're supposed to think Tien is stronger, for whatever that's worth to you.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#85652: Jul 24th 2018 at 5:14:50 PM

It's because Kriller is a coward...he will not be shown as more powerful.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#85653: Jul 24th 2018 at 5:15:56 PM

Actually, Super is where I'd argue Krillin is legitimately stronger but in that the scaling's all over the place depending on plot even more than it was in Z and DB.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#85654: Jul 24th 2018 at 5:17:20 PM

Although in Super, I feel like we're supposed to think Tien is stronger, for whatever that's worth to you.

Really? Unlike Z, where Tien does more impressive things than Krillin, in Super Krillin seems pretty clearly shown to be on top. Take the TOP recruitment episodes. Krillin gets a really cool battle against Goku, while Tien is mostly used as Gohan's punching bag.

Oh wait I forgot Tien was shown as more competent in Battle of Gods. So I guess the narrative here is that Tien got on top after Krillin stopped training, but after Krillin got his groove back he got stronger than Tien.

Edited by Moth13 on Jul 24th 2018 at 8:21:47 AM

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#85655: Jul 24th 2018 at 5:18:31 PM

Huh, well I haven't see the Tien recruitment episode.

Edited by LSBK on Jul 24th 2018 at 7:18:08 AM

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#85656: Jul 24th 2018 at 5:19:36 PM

Both are taken out like punks in the TOP, but yeah, before then Krillin was definitely being shown as more powerful I'd argue, though I haven't done a thorough sweep of the feats and statements.

[up] I wouldn't recommend it, IIRC it's the one where Master Roshi spends the whole ep basically trying to molest a girl and then gets brainwashed and beats Tien outright. In another ep he has a big fight which consists of Gohan one shotting him.

I must ask though, if you haven't even seen the recruitment episode what made you think that Tien was stronger than Krillin in Super?

Edited by Sigilbreaker26 on Jul 24th 2018 at 12:21:13 PM

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#85657: Jul 24th 2018 at 5:21:53 PM

Oh, I thought those were different episodes.

[up]TOP stuff mostly, and the way Super treats characters it seems like fan perception/desire. Hence Roshi also apparently being stronger than Tien/Krillin and getting to do more than either of them.

Edited by LSBK on Jul 24th 2018 at 7:30:18 AM

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#85658: Jul 24th 2018 at 5:24:17 PM

I checked the manga before I made my comment. Cell does not move. He isn't shown flying out of the hole, he isn't shown being pushed into the hole from the first blast. He is shown above the whole first, and then pushed down into it by successful blasts until Ten collapses.

Putting more stock in the time it takes characters to talk instead of multiple direct statements and feats is completely asinine. The manga repeatedly states and shows that Ten has no means to measure up against people who dont measure up to Semi. And you're totally ignoring Talking Is a Free Action

Even if you ignore Kuririn's battle power of 75,000 the manga gives him a battle power of around 10,000 against Guldo. That's better than any statement Ten got, so burden of proof is on you to say that he's stronger than that.

You are really grasping at straws to discount multiple statements of Kuririn's strength - including some from the manga, or the fact that Toriyama has been consistent with this statement for decades - in order to prop Ten up despite only one scene in his favour that requires a bunch of favourable and inconsistent interpretations applied to it.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#85659: Jul 24th 2018 at 5:24:18 PM

Tien tends to look better because Toriyama is more willing to show Krillin holding back out of fear.

That's one thing you can say about Eye guy (yeah, lame nickname, I know): no matter what the opponent, he jumps into battle without hesitation.

Which makes sense really: Krillin was bullied for years, and used to being scared of dudes who looked stronger than him. Tien was trained by the best assassin in the world, and like had the fear kicked clean out of him along with everything else.

...and yes, they both still suck. I'm not forgetting that, but this ain't about who's more powerful.

Also, come people: what character would use what weapons? This is something new! Lets run with it!

<Angry Fist-Shake>

Run with it...!

One Strip! One Strip!
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#85660: Jul 24th 2018 at 5:40:39 PM

"I checked the manga before I made my comment. Cell does not move. He isn't shown flying out of the hole, he isn't shown being pushed into the hole from the first blast. He is shown above the whole first, and then pushed down into it by successful blasts until Ten collapses."

I'm looking at the panel right now and I definitely see horizontal movement.

"And you're totally ignoring Talking Is a Free Action"

I'll give you this one, I only mentioned it because it stood out to me.

"Even if you ignore Kuririn's battle power of 75,000 the manga gives him a battle power of around 10,000 against Guldo."

"That's better than any statement Ten got, so burden of proof is on you to say that he's stronger than that."

You cannot be serious.

Both of those power levels are fodder compared to the damage needed to pin down SP Cell, who is far, far beyond Freeza who was a million in only his second form.

I'm actually shocked that no one has brought up Krillin taking off Freeza's tail since it's his best feat - but of course, second Form Freeza is miles below Semi-Perfect Cell.

"You are really grasping at straws to discount multiple statements of Kuririn's strength - including some from the manga, or the fact that Toriyama has been consistent with this statement for decades - in order to prop Ten up despite only one scene in his favour that requires a bunch of favourable and inconsistent interpretations applied to it."

What's funny is that the precise opposite has been and is being done right now. As in people tying themselves in knots to downplay a feat orders of magnitude above anything Krillin's ever done including someone asking me to actively ignore it.

Firstly, I've already said that I don't care what Tori says. If that's your argument for Krillin being stronger fine but I've repeatedly said that I believe in Death of the Author when it comes to this sort of stuff. If Toriyama wasn't so insistent I guarantee you there wouldn't even be a debate on this.

Secondly, Yamcha's statement is extremely dodgy, he hasn't seen Tien in 7 years and is talking to Krillin's daughter. The context cannot be ignored on this one.

[up] I tried man. But they pull me back in.

Edited by Sigilbreaker26 on Jul 24th 2018 at 12:48:03 PM

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#85661: Jul 24th 2018 at 5:55:18 PM

I often feel that dragon ball's scale expanded far too rapidly for the supporting cast to keep up but also too expansively for them to gracefully bow out

Tien should have disappeared into the mountains at some point and never come back

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#85662: Jul 24th 2018 at 5:58:26 PM

Yep, he should have. After all, they don't cart around Oolong and Puar with them. Him and Yamcha should have permanently retired after the Freeza arc.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#85663: Jul 24th 2018 at 6:05:05 PM

I gotta agree.

It's weird how Toriyama kept them around, despite the fact that he clearly had no plans for them at all.

I mean, we say there's more to characters than how they fight, but we see little of what they are doing when they aren't hanging out with Goku. If he insists on keeping them around, let us see more of their lives when they aren't being reminded that they're completely irrelevant to battle.

One Strip! One Strip!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#85664: Jul 24th 2018 at 6:24:05 PM

I'm looking at the manga and seeing no movenent, so we're not going to make any headway on this.

I AM serious about the BP thing. Yes, that level is absolute fodder. So is Ten. We know this because he's considered an 'insect' compared to base Vegeta, who is waaaaay weaker than the long chain of people leading up to Semi.

It's just that the Shin Kikoho allowed someone who is fodder tp pin down Semi. That's all it is. Just like the Kienzan can cut Freeza, even though Vegeta needs to lower his power for Kuririn's blasts to hurt him.

And no, my argument doesn't hinge on Toriyama's words. That's just one of the points in favour of it, that shows this isn't just a mistake or inconsistency. Death of the Author also doesn't really mean that anyway.

I also disagree that there'd be no debate without Toeiyama's words. I believed Kuririn to be stronger before I knew about that, and there are so many other factors beyond that. I would have alwaye bought Yamcha's comment above vague feats, because I understand the narrative purpose of it.

Explaining why Yamcha might be wrong is clearly just rationalizing a viewpoint which goes against what the story portrays.

Edited by Saiga on Jul 24th 2018 at 11:27:38 PM

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#85665: Jul 24th 2018 at 8:36:05 PM

Wow, the Krillin versus Tien debate actually made it's way here.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#85666: Jul 24th 2018 at 8:38:09 PM

It is a never ending battle

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#85667: Jul 24th 2018 at 8:41:00 PM

Repeated discussions are inevitable, I figured that was understood at this point. I don't know how it came up this time, though.

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#85668: Jul 24th 2018 at 8:46:10 PM

"I'm looking at the manga and seeing no movenent, so we're not going to make any headway on this."

It's irrelevant anyway unless the argument is specifically Cell Saga Tien V Krillin (and since the statement of the day is Yamcha's from the Buu Saga, it isn't). Tien sees, responds to and intercepts an attack from goddamn Super Buu, something which is not super helpful for determining power but is still a phenomenal speed feat, which was my original argument with him nailing Cell. It's a speed feat lightyears ahead of anything Krillin has done.

Krillin and Tien both have excellent one-hit-kill moves (at least in regards to each other) in the Destructo Disk and the Kikoho. The difference is that Tien's speed - from the Buu saga if nothing else - means that he can actually hit with it.

But none of this matters anyway. Tien's feats are way better. Krillin has an authorial statement and a dodgy one from Yamcha. It all comes down to what matters to the person reading.

Edited by Sigilbreaker26 on Jul 24th 2018 at 3:48:59 PM

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#85669: Jul 24th 2018 at 9:00:00 PM

Ultimately, Tien comes off as looking better even though Krillin is above him because Krillin is the Muggle Best Friend Comic Relief, and Tien isn't. Krillin's there to be funny regardless of strength, which is a character niche with a lot of job security.

Tien, on the other hand, doesn't have that, or any other real reason to be in the dynamic any more, so if Toriyama chooses to use him there has to be something to it to justify his presence. Hence, whenever Tien rarely shows up it's usually doing something cool, whereas Krillin shows up far more often but is typically doing something funny.

[up] Using that as a point of comparison doesn't really work, because Tien is literally the only major character we know of who was targeted by that attack in the first place. There isn't much of a litmus for how easy that attack was to dodge or not, except that someone of Tien's power could do so.

If it was, say, the Chocolate Beam that was even able to nail characters explicitly far above Tien (nailing Krillin at point blank and 18 at distance), that would be both significant and something capable of being compared. By the logic you're trying (that is, that because Tien was able to dodge one attack by Buu, he was faster than anyone who failed to dodge any attach by Buu), you could justify Tien being faster than 18. Or Piccolo. Or Gohan.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jul 24th 2018 at 9:11:08 AM

Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#85670: Jul 24th 2018 at 9:38:45 PM

Or Gohan.

You mean the guy who can't catch earrings?

Edited by Moth13 on Jul 24th 2018 at 12:38:45 PM

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#85671: Jul 24th 2018 at 9:39:21 PM

Ten doesn't have better feats, his can't be quantified.

Kuririb has a higher battle power, and better clear feats (smacking around Ginyu-Goku).

[up][up] I think he's talking about the blast that Boo aimed to kill Dende. But Dende is pretty damn weak.

Edited by Saiga on Jul 25th 2018 at 2:41:30 AM

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#85672: Jul 24th 2018 at 9:39:52 PM

He needs to do more pushups and drink more juice.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#85673: Jul 24th 2018 at 9:50:29 PM

[up][up] Oh, my bad. I thought it was the Human Extinction Attack.

But yeah, the logic is still rather faulty: it's not a great point of comparison no matter how you slice it.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#85674: Jul 24th 2018 at 9:51:54 PM

All in all Tien needs to change up his training routine.

Cause clearly whatever the fuck he's been doing the past decade ain't working.

Edited by slimcoder on Jul 24th 2018 at 9:53:47 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#85675: Jul 24th 2018 at 9:52:48 PM

Maybe he's been training too much and needs to chill the fuck out.

If Krillin retired from training and then took it up again and still managed to be stronger than Tien than clearly training constantly is counter productive

Forever liveblogging the Avengers

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